10 guns gunshop employees are uncomfortable selling

Two more pennies for the jar!

I'm one of apparently a very small group here (saw one other yesterday here) who has never, ever had a problem with any 1911.


I'll call BS on this one! (Hopefully in good humor)! I'd be willing to bet that a FTF or FTE wouldn't be a "problem" with a 1911 but would be a reason to call POS on my "specials".

I collect Saturday night specials because I like to tinker and try to improve performance. They are plinkers. They are cheap enough where I don't worry about "ruining" one. Somehow that seems to make me an outsider on most forums.

We're on the verge of being really elitist with this whole mentality of "poor people guns". Poor people don't have collections. I'll spend whole days driving to pawn shops just looking for the right POS. I bought a HiPoint .380 just to find out for MYSELF if they were any good. I consider my disposable income well disposed of. Geez my average automatic and an average date cost the same and I get to keep the gun!


Lastly for the "betting your life" argument. People need to take a long cold look at the facts. Most incidents stopped by a victim with a firearm don't end up with a shootout, or a dead perp. Most end up with soiled undies and a display of a**hole and elbows from a criminal who knows there are easier marks to be had. Gangster wannabe ain't gonna care if I meet him at my bedroom door with my HiPoint or my Beretta. If I ever get in a gunfight I'll reach for the Beretta no doubt but at some point some of our commandos using this logic have to realize that for a private citizen the odds of using a firearm in a shootout and using one in a zombie attack aren't worlds apart.

If you see me on the firing line come try some of these out. I won't tell!!!!!
Peace

Most incidents stopped by a victim with a firearm don't end up with a shootout, or a dead perp.

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Maybe most of them don't, but all it takes is one shot between your eyes and the above point -- hell, this entire discussion -- is completely moot. Whether or not I felt like I could count on a Hi-Point or a Lorcin, if I had it to go back and do again I'd still lay down the $450 for the Ruger P90 that lies within arm's reach of me every night, long odds of of having to use it in an actual defensive situation be damned.

I gave up on 2 1911s, pos, wouldn't feed much of anything, but ball even after throating and buffing by a danged good gunsmith. I very much prefer DA guns anyway.

I personally hated to sell some guns to people that I knew were going to stake their lives on them; thats' my criteria. If you're buying it for self defense this is not the place to be doing "just as good for cheaper" thinking. Thats' pedestrian shopping, and you're not serious. Cliched as it might be, "How much is your life worth" is the real question. You should be willing to go thru what most of us have discovered is a process of buying what you think you want, trading for something better (after you've acquired enough experience to know what and why is better) and yes, sometimes losing money on the deal and having your expectations educated by the process. You should have stories like the rest of us like:
I wish I'd kept...(2 S&W 4506's)
I traded it for a new (latest and greatest) and wished I hadn't (G-21 I traded for new CS-45)
It just didn't fit my hand (Beretta 92)
I don't know why; great gun but I couldn't hit anything with it (S&W 4566)
Mine, (despite what all the reviews and all the raves on THR) was a POS (Walther PPK)
Yeah, I changed this and it worked fine (G-21 guide rod and spring)
He couldn't hit a thing with it...I bought it from him and it works fine for me...(1st issue Colt ENH Commander).
Notice a trend? Quality aside, personal learning curve experience with many guns. (BTW, anybody else manage to blow up a Grendel? Factory ammo only)...
Bigfuel: Start yer own thread...I'll listen.
Cheers, TF

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How cheap is too cheap? My trusty Ruger P90 is twice the gun of some guns that cost twice the price. It's target grade accurate, 100 percent reliable with everything I've fed it, superb DA/SA trigger, and built to last a couple of thousand years. It was cheap compared to most 1911s or sigs or HKs and such, but runs just as well or better.

BTW, I've had a Grendel P12 .380 for about 15+ years and it's been 100 percent with ammo it likes, though there are bullet profiles it doesn't really like. It has never broken and I trust it enough now to carry it on occasion when I need real stealth. 12 reliable rounds of .380 with a spare mag isn't a bad thing. I know the P10 had problems, they seemed to be worked out at least in MY P12. The trigger is a little weird, but it's shootable. I cut away some of the forward part of the trigger guard so that my finger would let the trigger reset. It now shoots well for a small self defense deep concealment gun and while I'm not in love with the thing, it's not a bad gun for what it does.

I also have a much maligned Kel Tec P11 that's been 100 percent and accurate as heck for 11 years now and thousands of rounds. It was $260 or so when I bought it.

So, how cheap is too cheap? Everyone has a different answer. Most will agree that Bryco/Jennings is too cheap for serious carry, but everyone seems to have a cut off. I don't think it's the price of the gun at all, but the quality of the gun. If you get a high quality gun like a Ruger P gun for less money, why is that gun "too cheap" to be relied upon for self defense? Why is it that the cost of the product is used by so many people to judge its worthiness for carry? Price has absolutely nothing to do with it, it's the individual gun and whose hands they'll be used in that matters, not the price tag. I have my preferences in firearms like anyone else, but when I see a gun that works fantastic and happens to be less expensive, I see that as a good thing. That's why I like Ruger and Taurus a lot over the high priced guns, pure performance for lower prices. They are among the most bashed brands on the market, pure ignorance and arrogance IMHO and gun snobbery.

Why is it that the cost of the product is used by so many people to judge its worthiness for carry? Price has absolutely nothing to do with it, it's the individual gun and whose hands they'll be used in that matters, not the price tag.

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These are my thoughts, exactly.

Tom Fury, you are an eloquent and gracious gentleman worthy of my respect. I extend my apology to you for highjacking your thread. I also apologize to the forum for my inital post --not the most appropriate language used I must admit. But before I slip off into the sunset of cyber land, never to return, let me explain a little bit to you about why I did it.

I rarely come to this forum, but occaisionally--maybe once a month or so, I do browse through the threads looking for some insight on various topics of interest. Many times I have been successful in that quest. Often, as in almost every time, I leave with the perception that there is a high level of elitism here. Real or not, based on the number of posts that freely bash brands of guns and-- what really raises by hackles--gun owners, I had a predisposed notion of what was going on in this discussion. I'm still not convinced I was entirely wrong, but I must give you the benefit of the doubt as to your intentions. As you can see, before I even got involved and despite your intentions, this thread had devolved into a brand bashing discussion, laced with inferences toward the stupidity of others, and the ignorance of "poor people." Having grown up without running water, I have a natural chip on my shoulder about that sort of thing. Actually it borders pure hatred, but I do my best to control it.

I actually got here after googling another topic, and invited myself in ready to do combat with the gun snobs. For that I may be wrong. But what many of you need to hear is that while you profess to be open minded, to an outsider (and there are others on forums I do visit frequently that have tagged this place as a downright hostile place to be), there is a perceived blanket of socio-economic prejudice here. Maybe to frequent members its not so apparant. Or maybe it is and you don't care. It really doesn't matter. It's your forum.

Welcome back, Mr. (9 posts) Straw Man. I think you've been here before, under different names.

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I can assure you orionenger that I have never posted here under any other name. BigFuel is the nickname I adopted after the Army told me that my Company broke an Army record for fuel distribution in a combat zone. 13.5 milllion gallons in ground operations in 14.5 months in Iraq, and not counting fueling over 10,000 helicopters. By now the record (if it is a record)is probably broken as units use sites there that we built to continue operations, but as the PSG in that initial group, I kind of like the BigFuel moniker. The only other one I use is diehard, which was the my radio call sign in my home unit.

With that I bid thee adieu......have some wonderful discussions at my expense.

Bigfuel

Pretty pointless thread. For every pistol denounced, someone will pipe in their is the perfect example of quality, reliability, and value.

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Most incidents stopped by a victim with a firearm don't end up with a shootout, or a dead perp.

Maybe most of them don't, but all it takes is one shot between your eyes and the above point -- hell, this entire discussion -- is completely moot. Whether or not I felt like I could count on a Hi-Point or a Lorcin, if I had it to go back and do again I'd still lay down the $450 for the Ruger P90 that lies within arm's reach of me every night, long odds of of having to use it in an actual defensive situation be damned.
__________________

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I'll try one more time to make a point then go back to being a reader. Just because someone owns or likes cheap guns doesn't mean that he doesn't own or like quality arms. Here people are met with what I'd think is a level of rudeness I don't see in other hobbies. If I go to a Mustang forum and say I'm restoring my 6 cyl. 65 coupe, the term POS or " I wouldn't have one" won't be used. People are interested in WHY a decision to go one way over another is made.

FWIW I think we're mostly on the same page. Lack of reliability of the firearm will trump an ace shooter every time. A 100% reliable weapon can't overcome a poor marksman. I guess I'm advocating the idea that the price tag of the weapon doesn't enter the equation, other than buying a higher AVERAGE starting point for reliability.Surely we can all agree that there are gems and lemons on ALL assembly lines? I have firearms that started waaaay closer to 100% than others but I enjoy increasing BOTH variables in the equation equally and I don't understand the response that this brings up here.

PLEASE understand, I am not advocating my .25 Raven OVER the Beretta 92. I'm only saying that, having the reliability end covered, the "junk" has a story all its own, and common courtesy isn't too much to ask.

The idea here is sound, the problem is I don't know if I could just make a top ten list.

See, the way I see it, you have to look at context. People have very different needs. Some posters have commented on the realistic and legit uses of "cheap" guns and I won't comment further as it's all been said, but I will add that we have to keep in mind some people just don't want or need a level of performance beyond that. Some people honestly do not want or need anything "good" (for whatever that means).

Now we, we being the kind of people who even think to argue about this at all, may find that to be some horrible affront, but that's just reality, and it's freedom. People are gonna do what they're gonna do, and you might not always like it, but that's the price of being free yourself.

I think rather than a static list, we have to consider it scenario by scenario. For instance, I've helped several people who didn't have a lot of money do some handgun shopping by chipping in my knowledge, acting as a sort of consultant for free. Now I'm no expert, but in the land of the blind the near sighted man is king.

One such scenario was for an aunt of mine who had very demanding requirements. Her budget was tiny, and her requirements pretty stiff (I won't elaborate but they were extensive). Long story short, the Bersa Thunder .380 was the gun for her. Now is this a cheap gun? Well, yeah, but for what you get I was fairly impressed, and I bought the gun and put the gun through its paces and it got along just fine. For her purposes, shooting probably 1 box of ammo a month and needing an expedient and affordable handgun in that caliber, it was just fine.

Now is that Bersa in the same performance league as say the typical Glock 17? Not even close. But in this context, the Glock was no solution to the problem.

Would I carry that Bersa and feel it was worthwhile? Certainly, but I'm under no delusions that I can't manage to do better.

A personal example, I routinely carry an XD45 Service when my wardrobe allows it, but I'm a relatively young man with ham hands and an interest in firearms proficiency with a long torso. I've had good luck with the platform, it suits my needs. If something on it does break, I have another gun at home (I'm so lucky). This gun is fine for me and my needs, but probably not for a lot of people.

Hypothetical scenario, what if someone is physically disabled? A .22 caliber revolver might be the only thing they can manage to load and unload and fire accurately and quickly. I would recommend such a gun and some laser grips to that person in a heartbeat because it's so much better than nothing. Would I recommend this gun to myself as a serious defensive weapon? Not at all, I am lucky enough that I can do much better.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if I were to make such a list, it would have to be qualified who it was for, for what purpose, etc. so basically I'd have to make several lists for each person on that planet.

Thank you, MCgunner and Euclidean, for injecting some thought and common sense into the thread.

See, the way I see it, you have to look at context.

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Context. Yes. Good concept. Funny how my spouse (not a true "gun person"), when she's home alone, doesn't keep her $2000 Wilson 1911 or $750 SIG handy (even though she's a very capable shooter with 'em) ... but the two pistols that have been the most reliable and trustworthy in her experience, that she also shoots well: a $139 Russian Makarov and an old, beat-up Taurus PT-92. And I'm okay with this. Do I wish she'd come up with some other choices from our collection for her self-defense needs? Yes. But I consider her choices reliable and would rather she had available something she felt comfortable with; her pistols are also, in my experience, worthy of staking one's life on ...

I also think that most of the members here would love it if you could get a perfectly fine well made reliable Lorcin/Llama/Jennings/Phoenix for a couple hundred dollars.

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I don't know. If this is the case, then why all the garbage talked about Hi-Points? Lifetime warantee, solidly reliable, acceptable accuracy...

Given the amount of these guns that run without failures, the only valid criticism I've heard of them is poor ergonomics and weight. I guess $100 can't buy every thing, but if you spend it on a Hi-Point, you do get your money's worth.

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I also think that most of the members here would love it if you could get a perfectly fine well made reliable Lorcin/Llama/Jennings/Phoenix for a couple hundred dollars.


I don't know. If this is the case, then why all the garbage talked about Hi-Points? Lifetime warantee, solidly reliable, acceptable accuracy...

Given the amount of these guns that run without failures, the only valid criticism I've heard of them is poor ergonomics and weight. I guess $100 can't buy every thing, but if you spend it on a Hi-Point, you do get your money's worth.

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I carefully avoided any mention of Hi-point in my post just to avoid getting it dragged into the argument. I figure that while Hi-points have a good reputation that reputation is contingent on the understanding that it is a $100 gun. There are many firearms that cost just a few hundred dollars that have fine reputations with no need to clarify the price of the firearm. The CZ75B/P90 are fine examples. You can tell someone that they are fine guns without having to then add "that is keeping into consideration the price".

This doesn't mean that their is anything wrong with the Hi-point and I won't think anything of it if you own one but I am usually to busy saving up for that sub-$400 gun to be able to spare an additional $100 for a Hi-point.

I think more so then perhaps it should looks hurt the perception of the Hi-point as well. Maybe if we can get enough posters to mention their Hi-points going 2-3-4-5000 rounds without a failure and we can change that perception a little bit, at least on this board.

Just because someone owns or likes cheap guns doesn't mean that he doesn't own or like quality arms. Here people are met with what I'd think is a level of rudeness I don't see in other hobbies.

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I see where you're coming from, but I am not sure I agree with the remark on the level of rudeness. From what I can tell, the attitude -- and I'm not saying it's a bad one -- starts coming on when one tries to make the cheap pistols out to be an acceptable alternative to those who can actually afford a Glock-Ruger-Sig-CZ or what-have-you. A couple of examples include this thread and this one. For those who like the cheaper guns, more power to them, but making them out to be more than what they are, well, it just ain't right.

Actually a feeling of attachment is exactly something I strive to avoid, and why I got into polymer pistols.

Guns which I "like" do not make good defensive weapons because I don't think of them in the right mindset. My XD is a soulless, ugly hunk of black plastic which has no character.

And that's just fine, because I see it simply as a tool. I do like my XD very much, but for the same reason I like my Leatherman pocket tool: it is useful and it works for me and addresses my needs. If I break my XD or the cops take it in the aftermath of a self defense incident etc. I can just go replace it with another wonder poly gun.

Well, are gun shop employees really that much different from employees in any retail area dealing with selling to the public? I don't really trust gun shops very much. I've caught them lying too many times. They are businesses. If they have stuff they need to sell, they're going to sell it. Besides, gun shops are a prime source for the Bull****ium Crystals that power hot air that keep the places warm. I think your average employee isn't really going to be uncomfortable selling their stuff to you regardless. Do the walmart cashiers care if you buy some piece of junk that will break or do the salesmen at the electronics store really care either? You might find some rare folks that suggest getting something else, going somewhere else, or reading some reviews on it online, but they may be at risk of getting fired for it too.

I'm not dissing all gun shops, but folks need to take these places with a grain of salt. Most of the really good ones seem to go out of business because they do care.

FORMER HI Point owner

Had a HI Point 9MM. Could never get a full clip through it without a jam! Tried everything, different ammo, different clips, even let others fire it. It ALWAYS failed. I never want to face someone not knowing for sure if my weapon will work. I DO trust my Glock 19! (And my Kel-Tec P3AT)

Before I knew any better, I got sold several totally unreliable guns from several different gunstores, both ones that were too big for any kind of backup use (I wore a DW model 15 for work), and ones they sold me with backup use as the sole reason I was buying it.

The fact that my 2 1911's (AMT and Colt), my Taurus Model 83, and a few others didn't shoot very well wasn't a big deal, the Taurus I wore at work, and it WOULD shoot 6 shots without a doubt. The others were bought "to try", or just to target shoot.

But when the AMT 380 Back up took TWO hands to fire, unless you wanted to miss, because of the insane trigger pull if you didn't want to miss what you are shooting at(Eventually it did go down to about 30 pounds or so!), or the FTL Auto Nine that either blew the extractor off, or failed to open the slide completely, and the other two backup guns (Junky Walther PPK clones) just weren't reliable, IT WAS a big deal! I bought those after one of the guys I worked with almost had his gun taken out of the holster and used on him, for a backup, and for no other reason.

Eventually, I settled for a Beretta 950 Jetfire that I still own. I never had to use it, but I was 100% certain it would work. One of the retired cops who worked at the shooting range near my house recommended it, or a small S&W snubnosed revolver. I bought the Beretta mostly so I could hide it better, since it was flat and smaller than the S&W. Before I bought it, it seemed like they all wanted to sell me anything fairly small, regardless of how bad it was,

I recently shot it for the first time in about 10 years. It went through an old box and a mag of some new .25 auto with zero problems. I didn't even clean it before I shot it, I just took it out of my drawer, cocked it, and shot it. I've had the thing 28 years now, and it's never missed a beat. I cleaned it, loaded it, and back into the drawer it went, were it will stay, until or if needed.

I believe H&K fans have quietly made a compromise with themselves about how big even the compact ones are.

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My P2000sk feels almost as big as my CZ75 sometimes. Its reliable though.

This was right around the time that Asian kid shot up his college. So I went into the local sporting goods store to browse around out of bordem, I asked to look at one of the AR-15s... The guy behind the counter looks at me and proceeded to ask me, "what college do you go to?". What a question... Ive bought 2 guns from them in the past, now I wish I wouldn't have bought any. The other 3 guys that work behind the counter are really cool, this was some old gray haired guy... and no, I'm not of college age.

Bought a Hi Point 9mm Carbine a couple of days ago. Runs like a clock

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Didn't read this post past the first page, so if someone mentioned this, I apologize. For the amount of bad press the hi-point pistols get within gun circles, I think it is only fair to point out that the Carbines get praised pretty frequently. If I happened across a carbine at a good price, I would certainly buy one.

There are guns that have a lemon once in a blue moon and some that produce a lemon all too frequently. Our personal experiences color these perceptions dramatically.

My own experiences?

A Glock 30. Soulless but boy does it go bang every single time!

A FIE Titan .25. (Made by Tanfoglio.) Mine has 500-600 rounds thru it and I bought it used about the same time my brother bought another used "pos" auto. My little .25 is a flawless little shooter and, if you're in a situation that you're comfortable with a .25, I am fond of it. Tanfoglio is a quality manufacturer, in my opinion - too bad they use EAA as the importer now - more on that later.

The lil auto my brother bought at the same time 20 years ago? A Jennings .22. Absolute jammomatic!

A KelTec P11. I know, I know. Another POS, right? Wrong. For a concealed carry, it's worked out fine. Not a range gun - it also has HORRIBLE trigger pull. It did experience a few FTFeeds in the first 200 rounds (normal for many autos, I guess) and I availed myself of the KT customer service I have heard so much about. Sent it back; got it back after a couple of weeks - it now appears to feed anything and I trust it.

The one I didn't trust? A EAA Witness 10mm steel Wonderfinish. A gun I WANTED to love badly. Absolutely beautiful with great ergos. I spent probably as much in ammo as the original gun price, trying to get it to feed reliably. New mag springs, followers, mags, recoil springs, extractor, etc. Buy more parts. Wait. Install. $hoot more. Failure. I finally got it to feed reliably but traded it - I couldn't get over my initial lack of trust and dealing with EAAs smith was like talking to the two old grouchs from the balcony on the Muppet Show.

I know this isn't grounded in reason, but my Witness experience is the only thing that gave me pause in buying a used CZ75BD today (that, and at 389, I think it was a little too high.) I know the only thing they have in common is the CZ style platform but bad memories are hard to shake. I do think I'll get past that in the future because the CZ frame feels so good in my hand. It won't, however, be an EAA import. I think I'll stick with a real CZ or an Armalite.

I like Ruger revolvers. Never a bad experience. A stainless Blackhawk and GP100, here. Built like tanks. Give me the choice between a Ruger and any other equivalent platform revolver and I'll choose the Ruger every time. I'm still on the lookout for an old stainless Speed Six.

Since Ruger doesn't have a dog in the ultralight carry revolver race, I bought a Smith 642. Now this gun and I have bonded! A constant companion with five shots of 38+p. The factory equipped CT lasersights only add to my affection for this little beauty. This one has a soul, to me, just like my Ruger revolvers.

There are a couple of inherited Smiths in the safe - more heirlooms (like the Victory) than anything.

A lot of this is more emotional than intellectual, in my experience. Is this new "partner" going to be a friend or a PITA?

Not all inexpensive guns are cheap and not all expensive guns are great.

So, what would I add to a list?

1- Jennings. No way, no how.
2- EAA import. Tanfoglio is fine and my 10mm may have only been experiencing growing pains with a cartridge chambered in a gun designed for 9mm BUT I'm not going EAA ever again. All about service.
3- I, too, can't get past the "ugly" of a HiPoint but, were my funds that limited, "Sure." I would buy one.
4 et al- I don't "like" Taurus autos, (would consider a revolver, in a pinch), Smith autos (many I consider to be d*** near as ugly as HiPoints), or full size Smith revolvers.

I like Chevy better than Ford but, in a truck, would buy a Dodge first. Reliability keeps me buying Toyota and Honda cars, though.

I think designer clothes are for snobs but DO insist on some brands that work like Levis and Carhart.

I like tall redheads but married a 5'3" brown hair, brown eyed girl!

I've got no problem with inexpensive if it is reliable (my KelTec and Titan) and don't mind expensive when it is faithful and spot on, like the Glock or my lil brown eyed wife! While the Glock is soulless all the time, my wife is that way only once a month. Now, after 13 yrs of matrimony, if I could just get her to bang as reliably as when I ask the Glock, life would be good!

Sorry for the hijack!

I once had an older model Llama 45 in chrome. Heavy as hell, but an excellent shooter. A little ramp polishing and it would feed anything. Wish I still had it. Not ALL Llama's were bad. The older Commanche revolvers weren't bad either. Not to get confused with the newer Comanche's, made by Firestorm, which are complete garbage!

Worst gun I ever owned - AMT Hardballer. The barrel bushing pin fell out as I tried to clean the barrel. The rear sight also broke off.

The gun stores around here never sell the cheaper guns. I usually see them in pawn shops at ridiculous prices.