1986 FBI Miami Shootout?

No I don't think 40 S&W or CAP would have made much, if any difference. 9mm penetrates deeper than 45ACP anyway.

Does anyone here believe that the outcome of this situation would have been different, had the FBI agents been shooting 180 grain 40 S&W or 230 grain 45ACP?

Click to expand...

Well, that's what the FBI decided, anyways. They switched to the 10mm shortly afterwards. However, I think that this is more an example of the fact that if, as a law enforcement officer, you run into someone who doesn't care whether he lives or dies as long as you suffer, you will probably lose the engagement.

What? A .45 would have blown that guys heart all the way through his back, and then his head and arms would have been ripped from his body by the shockwave! Everybody knows that.

Personally, I think a .40 or .45 would have done better, but it's impossible to say how things could have turned out. It doesn't seem like that guy wanted to stop for anything.

These days it seems that the FBI and most other LE agencies believe that .40 is a better round than 9mm, so that might tell you something.

Don't bring a 9/40/45/whatever to a .223 fight.

Funny you should ask, I have the movie and it tells a sad story of the two FBI agents that died that day: Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove. I own a p89 9mm and I have recently considered getting something bigger for home defence. That is why I stumbled across the Rock Island Armory 45 for under $400. If you dont own the movie I would recomend you try to find it, it's called: In The Line Of Duty The FBI Murders.

Guess they should have broke out them "Old Fashioned" .357 wheel guns. HMMM.

Generaly it has been known since the Wild West days to never bring a pistol to the rifle fight.

a bigger caliber handgun might of made a difference, might not of. We'll never really know. Part of the problem though wasn't the 9mm, it was the 115gr bullet. Modern 147gr stuff penetrates a lot better.

How about they should have wore their vests had long guns . Don't bring pistols to a rifle fight .

My guess is that if they had been using a modern 9mm round, that bullet would have penetrated the extra couple of inches.

Lots of things have changed in the way bullets are constructed since those days, partially because of this incident. It doesn't matter what caliber; all handgun rounds are fairly anemic, but the loads they've got today are far better.

My guess is that if they had been using a modern 9mm round, that bullet would have penetrated the extra couple of inches.

Click to expand...

I agree even the ST has been redesigned

If the other calibers are truly magical in their performance, then 'yes' they would have made a diffeerence, but in reality, I doubt the difference would have been that drastic

More than anything this incident seemed to add to the justification of more heavily arming LE officers to allow them to have a fighting chance against a more heavily armed and aggressive bad guy that was willing to take the fight to the officers and shoot their way out.

Partially this was done with heavier caliber pistols/better ammo, but more long arms and sub guns in officers hands as well (in addition to the already present shotguns).

Contrast the final outcome of the 1986 incident with the North Hollywood shootout about 10 years later: same toll on the bad guys: 2 dead, but only a few wounded LEOs in LA vs the multiple LEO fatalities in Miami.

As a side note: When the FBI went to the 10mm pistol round, they also had HK do MP5s in 10mm as well. I guess the believed in the single caliber ammo idea, and liked the 10mm a lot.

A couple of excerpts from some reports.

This Could be there first problem

"SAs Manauzzi and Hanlon had lost control and possession of their issue Smith & Wesson revolvers. "

Another Problem

Grogan, nearly blind without his corrective lenses

They had wheel guns. The FBI couldn't hit their targets and the Bad Guys could. The FBI didn't do the traffic stop right and they underestimated there adversary which led to tragic events for many of them. The bad guys were trained and went into the FF knowing there adversary. The FBI was majorly under gunned. A couple of MP5's in 9mm could have evened the score.

The round wasn't the problem; proper armament was.

Link to some info.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

Do a google on Massad Ayoob and the Miami shootout and find his account of it--I originally read it about 1989, and it went a long way towards explaining the problems that the felony stop had.

Jim H.

There's too much guessing to say what if. The Silvertip had already penetrated his arm and tore out a section of Platt's brachial artery. Platt would have probably died if that happened in an Emergency Room. Would taking out his heart had a different effect? I don't think so.

I saw a bank video where an off duty LEO shot a bank robber at a range of about 10 feet and then his pistol jammed after the first shot. If you saw the video it wasn't a bad judgement call, the BG had started shooting at people. The LEO dropped his pistol and tried to take the BG's gun away. They danced around fighting for the gun for about 20-30 seconds and the LEO managed to get the gun away from him. The BG took off out the door and ran about 100 yards across the parking lot and....dropped dead. The LEO had shot him right through his heart. Not sure what caliber the LEO was carrying but a shot through the heart at that range with a 9, 40, 45, or 10mm would most likely have the same effect.

If the guy is set on a fight he'll continue to do so until he bleeds out.

Would the 180 grain 40 S&W or 230 grain 45 ACP have made the difference?

Click to expand...

The problem wasn't caliber, the problem was the standards the bullets were judged by at the time. 9mm, .40, .45, .50 no matter the width needed to penetrate deep enough to reach his heart. The 9mm in use wasn't able to. 9mm, .40, .44, .45, .50, that did would obviously have been much better.

Do a google on Massad Ayoob and the Miami shootout and find his account of it-

Click to expand...

As with most things, there is some controversy there. I would recommend that anyone who reads Ayoob's writeup, also read some of the criticism. See http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm "Stuck on Stupid: Ayoob and the FBI-Miami Shootout" section for more details. The original letter is here http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs8.htm There's a nice chart there showing ayoob's colorful adjectives on the left and the much less, well lets stick with colorful, but far more accurate information on the right. Here is a write up that I feel is better http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

The round wasn't the problem; proper armament was.

Click to expand...

I personally think there are several factors and it probably should have never came down to having to use handguns on these guys, but it did and the round didn't penetrate deeply enough to enter his heart because it took a less than direct path to it. Hopefully the lessons learned included more caution, being more prepared for what might be faced, and being sure the handgun can do what it will need to do if things get that bad.

"If,if,if..."

I have Dr.Anderson's book & recommend it for the forensics,not the report on the fight itself.
MAO:The FBI screwed up big-time by (in no particular order) not having rifle-rated vests.Not wearing the vests thay had (anything beats nothing).Bringing pistols to a rifle fightne of the agents writting in Anderson's book states the agents were carrying all the weapons they were authorized to carry.Humm..at least one of the agents present was 'FBI-SWAT' qualified:I thought all officer/agents who qualified for SWAT were qualified/authorized with rifles.Any LEOs want to weigh in on this please?Unholstering prior to rammingrobable a natural reaction but surely a little thought would have shown not a wise one.Not involving the local LEOs (there is a persistant rumor the surviving agents were nearly shot by local LEOs responding to the gunfight.Again,can anyone with more certain knowledge comment?).
Which bring me the the biggest screwup of all:the FBI fell victim to their own "invincible,uncorruptable,we-are-the-elite-all-we-have-to-do-is yell-'FBI!'-& the-bad-guys-surrender" myth.While this may be the usual case this was the 1 out of 100 times it didn't work.Platt in particular was determined not to die alone.This last is what scares me & why I practice the '2 to COM 1 to the head' drill.

Ahhh, the what if game

Would the 180 grain 40 S&W or 230 grain 45 ACP have made the difference?

Click to expand...

I share the same beliefs as the others that you shouldn't only have pistols at a rifle fight.

BTW, I've seen 45 ACP rounds (flying ash trays from a 1911) literally bounce off of automoble windshields, as well as not penetrating car doors, both from distances from as close as 7 yards.

As far as the "what if game": we weren't there (at the Miami shootout nor the North Hollywood shootout), and we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsite.

as it goes "pistols are pistols rifles are rifles"

As with most things, there is some controversy there. I would recommend that anyone who reads Ayoob's writeup, also read some of the criticism. See http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...3/0604-03a.htm "Stuck on Stupid: Ayoob and the FBI-Miami Shootout" section for more details. The original letter is here http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs8.htm There's a nice chart there showing ayoob's colorful adjectives on the left and the much less, well lets stick with colorful, but far more accurate information on the right. Here is a write up that I feel is better http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Click to expand...

"Jello Junkies vs. Morgue Monsters part XXXXXXXXIV: Character Assasination Isn't Just for Breakfast Anymore." LOL.

Based on the report I read on www.thegunzone.com, the 115 grain Winchester Silvertip 9mm that struck Platt stopped 1 inch short of his heart, thereby allowing him to stay in the fight. This was a solid center of mass hit with the 9mm and he was struck at least 9 times, but was able to keep advancing and firing on the agents with a Mini-14, killing two, severely wounding two.

Click to expand...

I take it that you are suggesting the 9mm round doesn't have enough penetrating power. Is that it? First, I see you neglected to mention that the round first went through Platt's arm and at that point it started to tumble. As it repenetrated Platt, it went through the lung and curved upward hitting the pulmonary artery or vein. It didn't stop an inch short of the heart as much as it was going to miss the heart by an inch.

I don't know if any handgun round that could be assured to penetrate about 6" of soft tissue, exit, re-enter, then be expected to continue on the original trajectory and undamaged. The FBI got their 12-14" of penetration from the round.

As a side note, Platt was able to withstand two lower body hits from a 12 gauge shotgun, 00 buck. This was one mean, determined thug!

Click to expand...

So you ask if we think changing to a different pistol round would make a difference? Also, but lower body hits, you are are including the one to the feet?

As noted, the FBI should have been using rifles. As noted, the FBI should have been hitting their targets better. earthworm is right. They screwed up in a lot of ways. W. French Anderson's book is a very good read into what all went wrong.

Here We Go Again

A "Which Is Better, Caliber War Debate"~!

I partially agree with the comments as made by Mr. Adams; as its really
impossible to specualte 'bout what might have been better at that very
instant. Many factors have to be taken into consideration, when try'in
to study the aftermath of this tragedy. Its a fact, NO HANDGUN CALIBER
is a proven "one shot stop, 100% ot the time". That theory is a total
misconception for anyone who believes that~!

Now on to the second part, FWIW in the days of old we had more officers
within my department carring self-loaders chambered in .45 ACP, than any
other round that was available; including .38/.357, 9m/m, .40S&W, .41/.44
magnums. Probably the ratio would be like 3 to 1; with .45 ACP being the
top ranked choice of all time, within my old department.

Even at that, we had a divided house as to what grain bullet weight was
best. Some officers were carrying the super light, 185 grain +P Winchester
SilverTips, other's 230 grain "fly'in ash tray Speer Gold Dots; while others
(including myself) toted .45's stoked with Federal's 230 grain Hydra-Shoks.