1986 Miami FBI Shootout

[WardenWolf]

That's why police now use coordination and spike strips to stop cars whenever possible. Colliding just has too many injury risks by itself and can also put you in a very bad position. In addition to being very expensive to repair or replace cars, modern vehicles also have airbags that can deploy in a collision, which significantly adds an element of disorientation.

Granted, given the equipment available at the time, stopping a car was not such a simple matter. Before spike strips, police would sometimes resort to blowing out a car's tires with shotguns. These FBI agents simply had bad tactics, bad coordination, and failed to use their available equipment properly.

 

[BushyGuy]

Those FBi agents made a fatal mistake , they should have waited for FBI SWAT to arrive, cuz they didnt have protection against rifle bullets and didnt have heavy firepower to compensate to the enemy fire.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

nd didnt have heavy firepower to compensate to the enemy fire.

Shotguns don't count as heavy firepower?

 

[earlthegoat2]

Since I am not a LEO and do not intend to put myself in harms way intentionally and do not conduct felony stops on known armed and dangerous people I think my 5 shots of 38 +P will suffice.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

+1

"Since I am not a LEO and do not intend to put myself in harms way intentionally and do not conduct felony stops on known armed and dangerous people I think my 5 shots of 38 +P will suffice."

 

[hammerklavier]

What strikes me in reading this is that the bullet penetration seemed entirely adequate, in fact, one of the first hits against against both criminals were either mortal wounds or very serious. It seems the main problem was subsequent shot placement as well as low capacity sidearms.

 

[BURN]

Quote:
nd didnt have heavy firepower to compensate to the enemy fire.

Shotguns don't count as heavy firepower?
__________________
Alas Babylon

use a pistol to get to a shotgun

use a shot gun to get to a rifle

skip any and all steps needed to end up with the rifle...

there is a reason for this train of thought.,....

 

[longdayjake]

Shotguns don't count as heavy firepower?

I do not know a single officer other than ones that cant shoot worth crap that would prefer a shotgun over a high capacity rifle. Don't get me wrong, the shotgun has its uses, but it can't match the hi cap rifle in an all out gunfight.

 

[LightningJoe]

So, can the FBI run you off the road whenever they want? If you fought back, wouldn't that be self-defense? If somebody else runs you off the road is that assault with a deadly weapon or impersonating a federal officer?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

There were other agents armed with HK MP5 SMGs who were also on the rolling stakeout and who, unfortunately, arrived after all the shooting was over.

 

[Dambugg]

Truly an unfortunate event in Law Enforcement history. The good thing is it really got people working on better ordinance for these scenarios. As well as, paving the way for more coordinated felony traffic stops. It's just a shame that people had to die so we could learn something from it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Shotguns don't count as heavy firepower?

use a pistol to get to a shotgun

use a shot gun to get to a rifle

skip any and all steps needed to end up with the rifle...

there is a reason for this train of thought.,....

I do not know a single officer other than ones that cant shoot worth crap that would prefer a shotgun over a high capacity rifle. Don't get me wrong, the shotgun has its uses, but it can't match the hi cap rifle in an all out gunfight.

The question was not how to get to weapons or what officers you know that can shoot well prefer. The question was about whether shotguns count as heavy firepower. They do. The fact that only one agent used his shotgun is a testament to the poor planning, the other shotguns still being in backseats, trunks, and/or cased. Except for Mireles, nobody else thought to grab a shotgun even though they brought them along. They had heavy firepower, but neglected to implement it when it was needed.

 

[M1911]

Those FBi agents made a fatal mistake , they should have waited for FBI SWAT to arrive, cuz they didnt have protection against rifle bullets and didnt have heavy firepower to compensate to the enemy fire.

At least one of the agents was a SWAT instructor, IIRC. And they had two agents armed with M16s, but they were a couple miles away in the toilet at the time.

 

[Mainsail]

What's the capacity of your EDC and how many mags do you have? Is the caliber of your EDC able to perform under the most dire circumstances in terms of penetration and expansion? Is your holster fitted correctly, with proper retention, but still capable of being deployed quickly and consistently in a state of duress?

It's typical to post the full name at least once before using an acronym; I have no idea what EDC means.

Also, while there are a number of important lessons in this shootout, unless you're in law enforcement (LE), you are unlikely to ever engage an armed gang offensively. So before you make radical changes to your personal safety plan, consider that in all likelihood, you will be reacting in a defensive posture.

Somehow, little old ladies that have never fired a gun in their lives, seem to miraculously prevail using guns against attackers when their homes are invaded. Deciding to carry the biggest highest capacity handgun, shotgun, and rifle you can find will do little to make you safer, and probably nothing. Build your self defense safety plan for the realistic threat, not like some internet commando preparing for zombies and space aliens.

 

[Vonderek]

I have no idea what EDC means.

Every Day Carry

 

[Erik M]

And here Ive been told for 2 months how a mini 14 is a jam-o-matic that cant hit anything. how bout that. If the primary shooter had an AR15 he would have taken out half of Miami.

it is terrible that the Agency had to suffer a injury and loss of life as a wake up call to upgrade thier arsenal, not unlike the North Hollywood shootout and the LAPD.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

North Hollywood shootout and the LAPD.

Seems like LEOs across the entire country started clamoring for AR15s (or bought them with their own money) after the North Hollywood robbery. Suddenly shotguns weren't enough (and they are right if the BG happens to dress from head to toe in body armor).

 

[Erik M]

^^^^ There is a lot of info on which agencies started employing heavier firepower after the incident on the related Wikipedia article. It hearkens to the militarization of the nations police forces.

 

[twofifty]

Looks like the solution to the problem exemplified by Miami's tragedy, as often happens, was to buy new gear and better ammo.

I wonder if as much effort and money went into revising protocols/tactics/procedures, and relevant on-going training. Got a hunch it was much less.

 

[Palehorseman]

I trhought I saw this once on the tube and the gun fight started when the perps opened up with the mini-14 through the rear glass of their vehicle.

 

[EvanWilliams]

Y'all might like this source better. I stopped reading the gun rags (Sanow, Ayoob et. al) and now just get Gun Tests and American Rifleman.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

 

[Old Guy]

You dress for the weather! You dress, and arm yourself for a known threat.

If those Agents would have armed themselves to the teeth "Gun Nuts" they would have been called.

You have a known threat situation, and ignore it? You get what you were asking for.
They ask for help more nowadays.

And do not forget, the FBI are white collar criminal catching people, really out classed here.