1986 Miami FBI Shootout

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SsevenN

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I'm sure it's been done to death, but I think this shootout is always worth a review. It speaks volumes about an attacker's ability to keep fighting long after being mortally wounded. Think about this situation combined with the experiences of an afrcom member HERE, and evaluate your carry set up. What's the capacity of your EDC and how many mags do you have? Is the caliber of your EDC able to perform under the most dire circumstances in terms of penetration and expansion? Is your holster fitted correctly, with proper retention, but still capable of being deployed quickly and consistently in a state of duress?

The Wiki article for the full read.

And the shootout snip of what must have been an absolutely terrifying experience for the (surviving) feds involved.


On April 11 a team of FBI agents led by Special Agent Gordon McNeill manned ten cars on the lookout for the suspect vehicle. Around 9 a.m., agents Grogan and Dove spotted the vehicle, and began to follow it. Two other cars joined them, and eventually an attempt was made to conduct a felony traffic stop of the suspects' car, which was forced off the road in a collision with FBI cars driven by agents Grogan, John Hanlon and Richard Manauzzi, sending it into a tree.

The initial collision that forced the suspects off the road caused some unforeseen problems for the agents, as the FBI vehicles also collided.[2] Just prior to ramming the Monte Carlo, Manauzzi had pulled out his service revolver and placed it on the seat in anticipation of a shootout,[2] but the force of the collision flung open his door and sent his weapon flying. Hanlon also lost his .357 Magnum service revolver..... during the initial collision, though he was still able to fight with his Smith & Wesson Model 36 backup gun. The collision also knocked off Grogan's eye glasses, making it difficult for him to see.

Trapped in the Monte Carlo by cars on both sides blocking the front doors, Platt fired at agents McNeill and Edmundo Mireles by firing his Ruger Mini-14 across Matix's body through the driver side window, with the muzzle almost in Matix's face. Mireles was hit in the left forearm, creating a severe wound.[2] Platt then pulled back from the window, giving Matix opportunity to fire. Due to collision damage, Matix could only open his door partially, and fired one round at Grogan and Dove. Matix was shot in the right forearm, probably by Grogan.[3] McNeill returned fire with six shots from his revolver, hitting Matix with two rounds in the head and neck. Matix was apparently knocked unconscious by the hits and fired no more rounds.[4] McNeill was then shot in the hand, and due to his wound and blood in his revolver's chambers, could not reload.[2]

As Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Dove's 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt’s right lung was collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. This was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s death.[5] The car had come to a stop against a parked vehicle, and Platt had to climb across the hood of this vehicle, a Cutlass. As he did so, he was shot twice, in the right thigh and left foot. The shots were believed to have been fired by Dove.[6]

Platt took up position by the passenger side front fender of the Cutlass. He fired a .357 Magnum revolver at agents Ronald Risner and Gilbert Orrantia, and received another wound when turning to fire at Hanlon, Dove and Grogan. The bullet, fired by Risner or Orrantia, penetrated Platt's right forearm, fractured the radius bone and exited the forearm. This wound caused Platt to drop his revolver.[7] It is estimated that Platt was shot again shortly afterwards, this time by Risner. The bullet penetrated Platt's right upper arm, exited below the armpit and entered his torso, stopping below his shoulder blade. The wound was not serious. icon_smile_8ball.gif

Platt fired one round at Risner and Orrantia's position, wounding Orrantia with shrapnel created by the bullet's passage, and two rounds at McNeill. One round hit McNeill in the neck, causing him to collapse and leaving him paralyzed for several hours.[9]

Dove's 9 mm pistol was rendered inoperative after being hit by one of Platt's bullets. Hanlon fired at Platt and was shot in the hand while reloading. Platt aggressively advanced on Grogan and Dove's car, which they were using as cover. Reaching their position, he continued firing. Platt killed Grogan with a shot to the chest, shot Hanlon in the groin area, and then killed Dove with two shots to the head.[10] As Platt entered Grogan and Dove's car, Mireles, able to use only one arm, fired the first of five rounds from his pump-action shotgun, wounding Platt in both feet.[2] At an unknown time, Matix had regained consciousness and he joined Platt in the car, entering via the passenger door. Mireles fired four more rounds at Platt and Matix, but hit neither of the suspects.[11]

Around this time, Metro-Dade police officers Leonard Figueroa and Martin Heckman arrived. Heckman covered McNeill's body with his own.[12]

Platt's actions at this moment in the fight have been debated. A civilian witness described Platt leaving the car, walking almost 20 feet and firing at Mireles three times at close range. Mireles does not remember this happening. Officer Heckman does not remember Platt leaving the car. Risner and Orrantia, observing from the other side of the street, stated that they did not see Platt leave the car and fire at Mireles.[13]

Platt attempted to start the car. Mireles drew his .357 Magnum revolver, moved parallel to the street and then directly toward Platt and Matix. Mireles fired six rounds at the suspects. The first round missed, hitting the back of the front seat. The second hit the driver's side window post and fragmented, with one small piece hitting Platt in the scalp. The third hit Matix in the face, and fragmented in two, with neither piece causing a serious wound. The fourth hit Matix in the face next to his right eye socket, travelled downward through the facial bones, into the neck, where it entered the spinal column and severed the spinal cord. The fifth hit Matix in the face, penetrated the jaw bone and neck and came to rest by the spinal column.[14] Mireles reached the driver's side door, extended his revolver through the window, and fired his sixth shot at Platt. The bullet penetrated Platt's chest and bruised the spinal cord, ending the gunfight.[15]

The shootout involved ten people: two suspects and eight FBI agents. Of the ten participants, only one emerged from the battle unharmed. The incident lasted more than four minutes and approximately 145 shots were exchanged.[2][16]

Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gun shot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were completely drug-free at the time of their deaths.[17]

1986_FBI_Miami_shootout_relative_po.jpg
 
I'm stunned every time I read it.

The human body is incredibly weak and incredibly resilient at the same time.

You can fall from an airplane and live or slip in the bath tub and die.
 
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I hate to see Wiki quoted ,they are not the best source.
AFAIK the FBI never admitted their mistakes .Mistakes , tactics and weapons, and bad luck made for a disaster.
Perhaps the best thing that came out of it was to establish exactly what kind of bullet performance is necessary and that led to the excellent bullets we have today.
 
So maybe there is a reason to have a 32 round mag for your glock carry piece. :D

All I know is that if I am ever involved in a close range fire fight I will be aiming for the head. Granted, I try to avoid anywhere that I might get in that situation, but who knows.
 
a important lesson to take away from the incident is poor choice of when and how to engage.

their was much blame placed on the choce/failure of weapons/bullets...but it was really a tactical failure
 
How many of you guys here would be comfortable drawing your EDC on a crime duo armed with a pump 12 gauge? (Hyper link story)

In winter, when I carry my biggest load out (CZ 75SP-01 + 1 mag), I would still feel extremly uncomfortable drawing down on a guy with a 12 gauge...:uhoh:
 
Another big take away from it was to always have your weapon secure in a holster while in the car. Some of the agents lost access to their primary weapons when the car wreck happend. How many times do you see guys on these types of forums talking about how they unholster while driving and place the gun between the seats or on the passenger seat. Car wrecks are violent, and your stuff goes everywhere. First rule of a gun fight is to have a gun.
 
Here's the difference. The guys that rolled on the known-to-be-heavily-armed robbers were FBI agents, trained to deal with takedowns of armed felons. They had vests available, heavier armaments (if requested, and obviously a good idea if encountering heavily armed felons), and the opportunity to INCLUDE the local police in backing them up on such a stop. Instead, they went after these guys with no vests, no heavy arms, and decided they could take them without sharing the task with the locals. It backfired badly. In my limited, 20 year stint as a uniform officer, I would not have thought to go it alone, with just a handgun, and without a vest. True, they were not alone (four agents, right?), but taking on guys they knew had .223 rifles, at the least, without some kind of rifles was not too smart. Having the local police respond would have put the bad guys possibly on the defensive from another angle, or maybe pinned them down sooner, and might have resulted in a shorter fight with better outcome. For many years, the FBI had become accustomed to people just laying down arms at the mention of their agency, but these cats decided they'd rather die than surrender. And they did. The entire law enforcement community got a wakeup call as a result; better weapons, better tactics, and a trend towards agency co-operation. Private citizens aren't obligated to fight these kind of odds or battles, but cops take an oath, and are paid to do it. They sometimes get caught off guard, but have to do it anyway, when there is no one else. That is what they get paid to do.
 
The FBI decided it needed bigger more powerful handguns, but the real lesson is on display for all to see right here:

Richard Manauzzi Injured (unspecified injuries).
Gordon McNeill Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
Edmundo Mireles Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
Gilbert Orrantia Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
John Hanlon Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
Benjamin Grogan, 53 Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
Gerald Dove, 30 Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight! One guy with a Mini-14 did all that in a matter of seconds. Every single agent should have a carbine or shotgun. But apparently they don't look good with the suit.
 
Fortunately the FBI has changed its tactics and choice of weapons and ammo. Unfortunately it cost the lives of too many brave men. This kind of reminds me of what the Clinton administration succeeded in doing and current administration is attempting to do. They think that we don't need so-called assault weapons or higher capacity mags for protection. On the contrary, you never know when a situation may arise, either on the street or at your home.
 
Hmmm

Matix hit 6 times before death - Platt 12 times - and kept fighting to the last. MY takeaway is the fact that on that day those Agents had the bad luck to take on maybe the toughest, meanest criminals since Wild West days.

Both of them were ex-Army - Platt Special Forces, Matix an MP. Neither of these guys were shrinking violets.
 
There is much to be said for using fire and maneuver to break contact.

. They sometimes get caught off guard, but have to do it anyway, when there is no one else. That is what they get paid to do.

What they don't get paid to do is screw up as badly as they did. Just like Waco, the feds decided to go the macho, in your face way, instead of a more intelligent, thoughtful way. Bad decisions, bad tactics, bad strategy= dead good guys. This firefight is an example of how NOT to plan a takedown.
 
Here's the difference. The guys that rolled on the known-to-be-heavily-armed robbers were FBI agents, trained to deal with takedowns of armed felons. They had vests available, heavier armaments (if requested, and obviously a good idea if encountering heavily armed felons), and the opportunity to INCLUDE the local police in backing them up on such a stop. Instead, they went after these guys with no vests, no heavy arms, and decided they could take them without sharing the task with the locals. It backfired badly.

Well, the agents did have vests, only most were not wearing them at the time. Even if they had been wearing them, they didn't have anything to stop .223. They also had several shotguns, but not out and ready except for Mireles.

I can't remember for sure, but the two assailants might have been on painkilling drugs, too.

Those were the North Hollywood bank robbers, not Platt and Matix. Platt and Matix were drug and alcohol-free.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
 
I hate to see Wiki quoted ,they are not the best source.

Can you point out the errors or link to a better source?

Wikipedia tends to be thorough and informative on a impressively wide range of subjects, and improves it editorial system all the time. It's selection of entries on cartridge histories/lineages/development is by fat the best public database you can find, bar none I have found. But if you have a better source, by all means we are open to it. Just please post a link when you do.
 
I don't tsee how it really relates to EDC. If it did I'd try to find a way to carry an AR concealed. The tactics on the part of the FBI sucked, the equipment they used (and didn't use) was wrong, and marksmanship on the part of the FBI sucked more than the calibers they used. The fact 2 bad guys put such a hurtin on 8 federal agents who were after them and initiated the situation shows training trumps hardware or numbers. It doesn't matter if the agents were armed with a thousand rounds each if they couldn't hit anything.

Like member sm always said: software, not hardware.
 
I don't tsee how it really relates to EDC.
:)

I linked to another story as well, that one pertaining to a pizza shop employee robbed at gun point by a duo, armed with a 12 gauge. I presented both storys at once because I believe they both, in their own way represent the worst kind of situations we can find our selfs in. These types of situations are also the most IMPORTANT ones to have a gun in.

Essentially I was trying to provoke a bit of thought from those of us who carry. The more deadly a situation, the greater the need for more effective, plentiful, and deployable defensive package. Having a 'good enough' amount of gun is better than nothing. But in the end, the more threatening the circumstance, the more gun the better.:eek:
 
ORO, this subject was discussed many times over after it happened .I no longer have references. I spoke to some of the better instructors, read many an article ,researched it as much as I could.There even was a TV program ,directed by the FBI which had glaring ommisions, never mentioning or admitting to their errors. Yes they had bad luck but they caused a lot of the problems.
 
I've seen the insider version of this...

Among all the other factors involved, one stands out to me.

SharpDressedMan said:
For many years, the FBI had become accustomed to people just laying down arms at the mention of their agency, but these cats decided they'd rather die than surrender.
I agree, but I think of it in different terms.

When they started their day, the FBI agents were ready and eager to find and arrest two dangerous criminals. They were NOT prepared mentally to kill anyone. Normally, we want lawmen to find and arrest bad guys. (We want our Armed Forces personnel to be ready to kill people.) Some days, it just doesn't go that way.

Lawmen have to seek, find and arrest bad guys. But be prepared to kill them when the time is appropriate. Not eager, not happy, but prepared.
 
They were NOT prepared mentally to kill anyone.
+1... Probably thoughts of their wives and kids also entered their heads and the desire to return home to them in one piece. Their's was a desperate fight for survival. Platt & Mattix were killing machines hellbent on killing the agents with no regard to their own survival. That's how Platt took the fight to them instead of retreating despite mortal injuries. He was like a modern-day Beserker. Two opposing mindsets.
 
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