Unintended Consequences

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Its funny, the way you were whispering about this guy in the first part of the thread I imagined John Ross as being some kook living in a cabin in southern Oregon with no running water and a tin foil hat on his head. Then I checked him out- sounds like a successful guy in many aspects of his life! :) And an interesting favorite pistol!

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Tammy Chapman currently lives with novelist and firearms expert John Ross in St. Louis, Missouri. The two met in 2006 and Ross has said on his website that Tammy is the living embodiment of Cindy Caswell, the central female character in his novel Unintended Consequences, published in 1996.


http://www.gunblast.com/LT_SW-JohnRoss500.htm :uhoh:

In 2007 Ross designed a version of the S&W .500 Magnum revolver so as to make it more suitable to his needs. Smith & Wesson produced 500 of these special Ross edition guns. It is a pound lighter than the standard version and produces even more power due to tighter barrel/cylinder tolerances. It produces more power per pound of gun weight than any repeating handgun ever made.[
 

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When UC came out I read some reviews and decided that it was my kind of book. Of course my local bookseller didn’t have it but they ordered it for me.

It was a mistake to start the UC before a long plane trip. I had to carry that boat anchor instead of a more portable paperback. Of course I had started it and couldn’t put it down. I have reread it at least 3 times. It is one of, if not my favorite novels.

Two mistakes in a book that is 459,489 words long is an amazing feat. Especially when he tried to pack it with so much information. Nothing short of amazing.

As to the sex scenes, so what? Personally I like sex. Even if I was not fond thereof, the sex scenes were an integral part of the story. They added continuity and believability at the end. One example of this is when they were setting up Schaumberg.

This was a great effort by a fascinating person.
 
Im a senior in Highschool, Reading that book was the best thing i have done all year.

thank you :)

and Hurry up with that sequel :) haha
 
I read a LOT --- and UC was one of hte best books I've ever read.

The sex was all necessary. The rape of the girl in the woods was that moment that Henry realized that killing is not always murder. It is also when he realized that doing what was necessary and just walking away saved a lot of time and trouble.

When Henry himself was raped, it was about solidifying his desire to share himself and teach self-defense. Furthermore, it made him a less flat character, as his struggle to deal with it showed that he wasn't perfect.

Cindy's ordeal is the same as Henry's in many ways. She faced a turning point in her life, learned to deal with it, and survived.

Finally, the sex near the end, I think, has a lot to do with the feeling of those times. When you let go of your inhibitions to do something you know will be life-changing, other inhibitions will fall as well. When you're going on a campaign to kill important people, a little kinky sex isn't even going to be a blip on your radar. Furthermore, those life-changing moments make sex a LOT better, and are a major turnon for most people. I know when I decided to get married, and when we decided to try to concieve, my wife and I's sex life improved quite a bit.
 
Skirmisher writes:
Husband got it for birthday years ago but I read it first. Think I'll read it again. Thought the sequal was due out last fall, but have not seen it.
__________________
Stacked & Packed in Michigan

Re the sequel mentioned, it was "scheduled" some time back, hasn't been seen yet, so far as I know, sad I think.

As to waiting for it, unless you look good in blue, don't hold your breath.
 
Just so we get it right, Im not bashing John's book, I loved it ...

However, what's this about him not being a recluse ? I thought he was a recluse in southern oregon. This takes away his cache'.
 
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As a prolific reader of spy novels, sci-fi and anything gun related I knew it was only a matter of time before I read his book and to tell the truth i was not disappointed. I will read it again after I finish moving.

And if I could afford one of his .500's it would be the next one in my collection. He does know a thing about guns, doesn't he.
 
WOW

I still don't fully understand who was the old lady living in a trailer who was the final evildoer to be offed at the end. Some have said Janet Reno. I doubt that she would be left to such a life by loyal leftists who adore her. Mr. Ross?

Nether do I & it driving my crazy....someone help.



With that being said, WOW is all I have left. I just finished UC. Great Book, great story, lots of history & some stuff that really scares the crap out of me.
 
I read something a few years back I can no longer cite to the effect that the woman in the trailer was a J. Reno analogue, and that this was left vague out of legal necessity.

My understanding is that portraying the assassination of a real, truly despised figure like that could be interpreted as inciting violence to that person. Even if such a charge would ultimately fail, sometimes, "the process (of defending yourself from gratuitous charges) IS the punishment", and it made no sense to create a liability like that.
 
Spoilers below. Be aware...

I just finished reading UC a few days ago. John Ross is a good writer in the sense that he has a command of the English language and can convey a story with ease. As well, Ross has a knowledge of firearms that is unparalleled. The first half of the book was intriguing. However, I found that a bit more than half way through this book I was forcing myself to continue. The sex was out of place and some of the story from there on was simply ridiculous.

At one point there is serious concern from our protagonists and consideration from the evil doers about "the government closing the Internet". I put the book down at that point and laughed so hard I nearly wet myself. It was the dumbest thing I ever heard, and Ross obviously didn't research that to well. (Even in '95, the U.S. gov't could only barely make a dent in the Internet by shutting down the root DNS servers. Even then, information would still flow freely and private concerns would fix the problem in a matter of hours, if not minutes).

The sex after about mid-way through the book is just silly. It's out of place and doesn't further the story at all. I have no problem with sexual content, but Ross's story benefits from it in no way. I found myself shaking my head and rolling my eyes repeatedly. The story doesn't say it, but the implication is that Caswell's abduction and years of sexual servitude are the reason for her being a lesbian. And then at one point Bowman actually counsels Caswell to become a stripper because "it pays well".

Ross paints Henry Bowman, Cindy Caswell, and Alan Kane and revolutionaries trying to effect change. However, as the story progresses it becomes very clear that the three are no more than cold blooded murders. Bowman even says as much when he tells Cindy that (to paraphrase), "We'll be killing people with families and children who's crime was no more than having voted differently that us." To top it off, they frame these people who they've murdered to make it appear that they were sexual deviants and drug abusers. For example, posing as security for some politician, they murder him and then set up the scene to appear as if he was participating in a (very graphically described) homosexual orgy. This was just over the top and ridiculous. It painted Bowman and Caswell as nothing more than cold malicious bloodthirsty murderers with sex on the brain.

Then the presidential pardon. Don't get me started. Bowman, Caswell, and Kane would be hunted and executed, and rightfully so.

Regularly throughout the book Ross stereotypes different races. At one point (while counseling Cindy Caswell to enter into the sex trade), he makes mention of "a black dishwasher in the back saying 'it's all good, bro'." I found this sort stereotyping to be somewhat offensive. Just as with sex, often Ross will raise the topic of race to no benefit of the story and for no apparent reason.

It is somewhat troubling that Ross apparently wants to paint the protagonists of his book at "typical gun culture people". If so, I would be offended by being put into the same category as cold blooded murderers and sex freaks like Bowman and Caswell. If Bowman and Caswell truly are an accurate representation of the gun culture in America, I would be ashamed to be apart of it. I personally don't believe that to be the case. I do however think that Ross thinks, or wants, it to be.

My initial thought after having finished the book was to wonder if Ross was anything like the book he wrote and the characters he wrote about. One trip to his website and some reading of his article "Ross In Range" gave me the answer. Ross appears to me to be a sexist and a racial stereotypist, in addition to a certified tin foil hat wearer (as evidenced by the introduction in UC where he writes "I've been told that I should expect police to plant evidence and to be railroaded for writing this book").

Unintended Consequences was okay. But I wouldn't go out of my way to recommend it and I am unlikely to read it again. I'm all for fantasy stories (like MHI, totally awesome). They're fun. But John Ross has written a story that he implies (evidenced, again, by his introduction) is very close to the real world. With this I disagree. And, again, I am offended that he has painted a culture that I am apart of with that brush. I view this book as actually damaging to the gun culture in America.


-T.
 
Well~~~

I ALMOST posted a VERY long reply but censored myself. I was afraid it would get EDITED, DELETED or LOCKED!

Sometimes truth/facts are stranger than FICTION and that includes the latest GUN, TRUE FREEDOM and political climate in ALL areas.

I am not a Cindy or a Henry. Most of us are Not killers or into kinky things in our private lives... sexual or otherwise. That is in reply to the one poster on here... latest post.

However... I think this book tells us some things that have already gone on in this country, IS going on NOW and WILL come down the road because we have crazy, power hungry, money hungry, greedy, sick, deviant in more ways than one NOT only in sex, war mongering, NWO control freaks in BOTH parties that care more about themselves and their AGENDA while they put the screws to the middle class, America as we know it, putting America FIRST and HER citizens and/or LEGAL immigrants, screwing GUN OWNERS, true freedom, ignore the 2nd - RKBA, 4th and other Amendments, restrict free speech, control boards like THIS in gun and/or political matters, write and pass more gun and ammunition LAWS, keep on shredding the Constitution - you KNOW WHO and what HE called it now, eh? Look at the latest TOP three control freak candidates, what THEY want, what they think and have promoted or restricted in ALL GUNS, GUN and AMMUNITION LAWS, TYPES OF GUNS, CCW LAWS, and FREEDOM.

I think that this book is mild on what HAS gone on, what IS going on, what WILL happen in the near future.

Speaking of deviants and so forth... the latest suicide (Not!) when it comes to that District of Criminal Madam and her LIST of clients. She knew too much and was going to TELL more. Connect the dots, follow the money and who benefits from her being DEAD because dead men tell no tales (Unless her papers were stowed away!). She would not be the FIRST one who was 'suicided' either. So to me the facts/truth and cover ups in REAL life make the U.C. Book look MILD!

I never thought that I would see WACO or Ruby Ridge happen in Amerika, errr, America either! BURNING and killing of people... FEDS and other killers getting promotions. More laws, more powers, more control, more you name it, same old ____!

So you SEE sometimes truth is stranger than fiction... sometimes it is even MORE SAD and it should be FEARED - STOPPED too.

Live free or die!

Catherine
PS: Catherine now adjusts her tin foil hat (To some of you!) so her bangs and halo do not slip down to her eyeglasses! Grin.
 
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QUOTE:

Unintended Consequences was okay. But I wouldn't go out of my way to recommend it and I am unlikely to read it again. I'm all for fantasy stories (like MHI, totally awesome). They're fun. But John Ross has written a story that he implies (evidenced, again, by his introduction) is very close to the real world. With this I disagree. And, again, I am offended that he has painted a culture that I am apart of with that brush. I view this book as actually damaging to the gun culture in America.


-T.

~~~~~

See my above posts in this thread if you have not already... that is IF you even want to read them at all or again. I totally disagree with you so we will have to agree to DISagree. No offense to you. Thank you!

I am NOT offended by his book. I do not think that it hurt us in the gun culture because I think that we all come from various backgrounds. I am no Cindy or Henry or come from a background as some people might have come from.

If you think this book is offensive... don't read some parts of the BIBLE! The OT especially... then you have the NT and, well, Jesus Christ even puts some of those people in THEIR place! I won't discuss S and G now in the OT. You had kinky and deviants there too, eh?!?

I am a middle class, middle aged former widow (Vietnam Veteran and more who died from cancer.) now remarried, who is VERY big into ALL FREEDOM ISSUES, GUN RIGHTS, NO BS POLITICS, SELF DEFENSE, etc.

I think that we come from all backgrounds and even though Cindy and Henry (Fictional people.) are NOT like me or my family or how I was raised, USN Bride, my life, my career, my marriage, my widowhood, my remarriage, my gun learning, my self defense learning, etc. --- I say, "Bring them on into the gun culture!"

There may come a time when Henry Bowman types might just be... well... never mind. ; . )

Catherine
 
Thernlund: Thank you for thinking I'm a good writer. As to your other points, I'm probably wasting my time, but I'd like to reply to some of them.

1. Sometimes I have characters suggest things that aren't feasible. Closing the Internet was one. In 1995 I OFTEN heard talk like this. At the time, many people felt the number of key "servers" (or whatever) was small enough that government intrusion was possible. Sorry if that ruined everything else for you.

2. "I found myself shaking my head and rolling my eyes repeatedly. The story doesn't say it, but the implication is that Caswell's abduction and years of sexual servitude are the reason for her being a lesbian. And then at one point Bowman actually counsels Caswell to become a stripper because "it pays well"."

I personally know several self-descibed lesbians who say they are the way they are because of sustained male sexual abuse during their formative years.

And an underlying theme of my book (not to mention my real life) is that more money allows more choices. Stripping can pay very well, and if the stripper avoids drugs and foolish luxuries, she can build assets ten times faster than a secretary or receptionist can. This is fact. Further, Henry suggests stripping as an alternative to what Cindy was considering becoming, which was to be the paid mistress of a businessman.

3. You touch on a central theme of my book, when you say "...as the story progresses it becomes very clear that the three are no more than cold blooded murders [sic]. Bowman even says as much when he tells Cindy that (to paraphrase), "We'll be killing people with families and children who's [sic]crime was no more than having voted differently that us." "

This is something I want people to reflect on. When is the time for violence? Only when you are being herded to the gas chamber? Because by then it's too late. When legislators legislate away your rights in violation of the Constitution, is it okay then? Only the reader can answer that...

"To top it off, they frame these people who they've murdered to make it appear that they were sexual deviants and drug abusers. For example, posing as security for some politician, they murder him and then set up the scene to appear as if he was participating in a (very graphically described) homosexual orgy. This was just over the top and ridiculous. It painted Bowman and Caswell as nothing more than cold malicious bloodthirsty murderers with sex on the brain."

Or maybe it painted Bowman and Caswell as shrewd, creative tacticians who successfully enlisted an unwitting mass media in their guerrilla war against an overwhelmingly more powerful adversary...

4. Presidential pardon: Less believeable than Lincoln welcoming Lee and all other Confederates back into the Union with all rights and priviledges intact? Your call...

5. Racial issues: Where I live, almost all black people, especially dishwashers, speak differently than whites, Asians, or Hispanics. Where applicable, I tend to write things as I have observed them. And "it's all good, bro" is considerably milder that what I heard a black dishwasher say to a co-worker last night.

6. "One trip to his website and some reading of his article "Ross In Range" gave me the answer. Ross appears to me to be a sexist and a racial stereotypist"

Most people would say "Accurate describer of current realities"...

"in addition to a certified tin foil hat wearer (as evidenced by the introduction in UC where he writes "I've been told that I should expect police to plant evidence and to be railroaded for writing this book")."

I've been involved with law enforcement (as a firearms instructor) for over 30 years. The warnings were all made by LE people. They know how stuff happens, and so do I. Did you get a chance to read what did happen concerning my ex-wife? Google "James Jefferies" and "John Ross" in the same search...

7. "John Ross has written a story that he implies (evidenced, again, by his introduction) is very close to the real world. With this I disagree."

You and I obviously travel in different circles.

JR
 
Unintended Consequences was okay. But I wouldn't go out of my way to recommend it and I am unlikely to read it again. I'm all for fantasy stories (like MHI, totally awesome). They're fun. But John Ross has written a story that he implies (evidenced, again, by his introduction) is very close to the real world. With this I disagree. And, again, I am offended that he has painted a culture that I am apart of with that brush. I view this book as actually damaging to the gun culture in America.

Having lived in a very racially diverse area, I can assure you, What Ross has said above about different speech from different nationalities and cultures is very true. As for the sex, I used to be part of a subculture, one which makes any sex described within UC seem very "vanilla". If you knew the people in your community and personal lives who are involved with such, I am sure it would make your head spin. Just because people don't talk about something with everyone they know, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

John, the characters in your book ring very true with me. I too, have known lesbians who were"switched' by what they had undergone at the hands of men. I also have been privy to goings on within the LEO community that most people think happens only in novels. I loved your book, but lost my copy some time ago. I have been planning to order another, but keep forgetting.
 
Thanks for the reply John. It was rather unexpected as authors normally let severe criticism go away by itself. However, your reply is not unwelcomed. For me it is rather telling.

The story you have written in UC is a good premise. In fact, the first half or more of the book up until (about) "War" is fairly riveting and very entertaining.

For me, the book soon after became unrealistic. Without nitpicking specifics, I saw no point in the framing of politicians or in much of the sexual content. A great deal of it didn't further the story at all. I'll give one example... the young bisexual woman riding in the back of Henry's car with him and Cindy apparently begins to strip in the car and is subsequently reprimanded by Henry. This is but one minor example among many of scenes that did not further the story, but were only a diversion. I found myself fighting the urge to skip ahead on several occasions.

Again, I have no problem with sexual content. But in the case of UC, a great deal of it took away from the story in that it seemed useless.

This is just a critique of the book. You've written a story that is certainly better than most and is certainly not pulp fiction. Alot of it does ring true and is very plausible. For example, Henry's defense of Kane's home. I was riveted there. But after that the protagonists descend into a murderous killing spree that, given the context presented in the book, seems completely unrealistic. The killing of elderly retired officials was completely unwarranted and shows the players to be no better than thugs out for revenge.

Now on the other stuff...

You and I obviously travel in different circles.

I agree. The world which you describe is completely foreign to me. I live in a very racially diverse area (one of the largest cities in America and near the Mexican border), and even then I find the stereotyping rather unpalatable.

As well, you seem to imply that stripping is an honorable profession by the simple fact that it raises capital very quickly. I disagree. Gaining wealth at the expense of ones self respect is not acceptable to me unless it is under desperate circumstances. Money is not the center of the universe. Or my universe anyway. If I were to counsel a young woman who was deciding between a $40k a year job in an office, or a $150k a year job striping, I would strongly counsel her in favor of the office job. I am keenly aware of the fact that I may be wrong on this, but my impression of you is that you would counsel her the other way.

(As a side bar, I do in fact feel that stripping is somewhat degrading to the stripper and does objectify them. However, I am also in favor of a woman's, or man's, freedom to choose to objectify themselves. Sacrificing some dignity for cash is a choice anyone is free to make, and I'm all for individual freedom.)

I did the search you suggested and found what I think you wanted me to find (a letter to the ATF from your attorney, currently posted on Free Republic. My apologies, but just I don't believe it. At best I think it may be a marketing tactic for your book. At worst, full blown paranoia. I'll concede that it's possible. But not plausible. Without proof of such thing I cannot bring myself to buy the story. Other more high-profile authors such as Clancy (mentioned) have written content much more deserving of gov't scrutiny, and yet only you get harassed? I'm sorry. I can't buy that without more evidence.

Finally, I said it before and I cannot apologize for it. I view your book as somewhat damaging to the gun culture in America. It suggests that these people are typical gun people. It suggests that American gun owners are a murderous lot that will flip at a moments notice and begin gunning down entire families in their front yards if they feel at all wronged. It paints us as a vengeful bunch that will mow over everyone to get what we want.

Now keep in mind, I take little issue with the gov't reading your book. I fully suspect that UC, for the most part, didn't really stick out among the multitude of similar content that is published all the time. No, I don't think UC has damaged us in the eyes of the gov't at all. I doubt they even blinked. What concerns me is that UC damages us to the general public. You're book gets around, and I suspect it has a great deal of readership beyond gun people. It worries me that these non-gun people may read UC and get the idea that Bowman and Caswell as typical of gun people. The book content by itself is just a story. But it is given real-world weight by you suggesting in your introduction that this is a very close proximity. Nobody ever thought that Stephen King was suggesting that we actually make criminals run for their lives in his short story "The Running Man". But then Stephen King didn't write an introduction implying it was the real deal or these were typical people, eh?

You've written a good book, John. Overall I am not disappointed in having read it. I just see several problems which I have described above. That said, and while I am not likely to read UC again, I am likely to read your next effort.

Carry on.


-T.


P.S. The Internet thing didn't ruin it for me. It just stuck in my mind because in such a fantastically well researched book, this was such a glaring inaccuracy. It stood out like Shaq at a... well, wherever he goes really. :D
 
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