What's up with the elitist attitude?

The increase in the number of arguments over what constitute reasonable restrictions has nothing to do with a "growing elitism" on THR. It has to do with one thing and one thing only--HELLER. Determining where the line should be drawn is the next front of the movement, so don't be surprised if there are more and more arguments over what constitutes a reasonable restriction.

the implication often seems to be:
well, i'm qualified to handle a firearm safely, but those people over there, that's another story...

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Two words..............Glock .40.

Or Walter? Heck, the thought of Walter with a nerf gun scares me...

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MARK IT ZERO!

Am I the only one here who cares about the rules?

Bottom line: If it pegs my bull**** meter, if it sounds like you're doing something stupid, if it sounds like you're going out of your way to irritate folks who you perceive as "antis" (but who are, in all likelihood, going to be sitting on the fence until you show up...), then I'm going to tell you.

Been there, done that, been involved in gun rights stuff longer than some of y'all have been alive.

The one thing some of us learned EARLY on is that there are some folks who we just don't want to show up at a rally or political event.

Now, step back - are you one of those people?

I really shouldn't get involved in this thread...
(I say this in honor of The Tourist, who started a thread the other day that made clear to me the error of my ways.)
But...

I don't have proof to back this up - I skim through a lot of threads and don't reply to most of them unless I can contribute something worthwhile so I don't really even know where to start looking. I say this from more of an observational point of view than anything else.
But I kind of agree with the OP.
There is something strange running around on this board in some areas. I don't know if I'd call it elitism, but it is something.

The arguments could look like: "A permit to carry a handgun is reasonable and constitutional. Yes, I know the Constitution says 'shall not be infringed', but the courts get away with it so it must be OK. Besides, I like the fact that the government can restrict regular people from carrying guns, even though criminals prove every day that the government really can't prevent bad people from carrying weapons. It doesn't bother me to know that the little old lady next door can't carry her deceased husband's .32 revolver for protection because she's too frail to sit through a two-day course and she can't afford the $100 cost plus ammo that would be required for the class. And since it doesn't bother me, it's all good. Now run along. I'm right and you're wrong. Really. I'm right and that's final."

It just sort of leaves me scratching my head.
People say they support the RKBA but at the same time, they want to restrict that right. Even if they did want to restrict it, I guess I could understand that under some circumstances.
I mean, even I would support a total ban on WMD's on the grounds that they're more than less totally indiscriminate once they're used. I don't have a problem with people getting knocked off as long as the only people getting knocked off are the ones who need/deserve to get knocked off.
Restricting a weapon like that makes sense because you and I have a right to not be blown to kingdom come or to die from Sarin and our neighbor Ted's right to blow stuff to kingdom come ends right where we begin. I get that.
But why restrict the rights of regular "decent" people without any kind of cause?
There are those who argue that we can be trusted with handguns but should have to go through more government red tape and pay money to carry one for defense. You know, just to make sure that we're "qualified" to defend ourselves.
And there are those who say we can be trusted to own our grand-daddy's Winchester Model 12's for hunting but heaven forbid that anyone should want to buy an AK and a stack of 30-rounders.
I just don't get how that is supposed to add up.

I wouldn't say that this is the prevailing attitude, but it's also not that rare among gun owners and this includes some of the members on this board.

As long as it's only white males over 40 with a caliber that begins with .4, I have no problem with gun ownership.

The problem arises when uppity women, minorities, young pups and caliber-challenged individuals begin to think that they have the same rights that I enjoy.

Intune - your sarcasm made my point better than my own longwinded rant.
I salute you.

I believe it sharpens exponentially as my lung capacity decreases.

I think everyone here has their limits. If you keep presenting increasing hypotheticals to even the most stringent literal "SHALL NOT"ers, eventually you find something that would make them say O.K. well yeah THAT should be illegal. We all just have different limits. Doesn't mean anyone's elitist because they disagree with you. I.M.O. only and Y.M.M.V.

B.T.W. regarding "but, I'm not even allowed to have an opinion"- the only way that could possibly be true is if you are getting censored, posts deleted etc. And even in that case, you would still allowed to have your opinion (just maybe not allowed to express it on someone's private site). And I seriously doubt even that is happening. So I think your opinion is safe!

After reading through posts and Thernlund's attempts at sh$tting up this thread, I have to say the best response so far has been by ctdonath. He summed things up well.

For Cosmoline and others to say "problem, what problem?" strikes me as ... odd. I'd say if you're not seeing what the OP is talking about, you're not paying attention. The attitude is here. It's been here as long as I've been a member. If you doubt me, go ahead and start an OC thread. Watch how many holier-than-thous will jump in condemning OC for a dozen reasons.

I consider OC a personal choice. I support your right to OC. I will not denounce you for OC. Most of the time, I don't OC myself for personal reasons.

But yeah, the OP isn't seeing boogeymen in the dark. The attitude is here. "Elitism" might be a bit strong as a description, but to deny that condescension exists on the part of a number of members towards OC-ers simply tells me folks haven't been paying attention for the past year or so.

bogie said:

Bottom line: If it pegs my bull**** meter, if it sounds like you're doing something stupid, if it sounds like you're going out of your way to irritate folks who you perceive as "antis" (but who are, in all likelihood, going to be sitting on the fence until you show up...), then I'm going to tell you.

Been there, done that, been involved in gun rights stuff longer than some of y'all have been alive.

The one thing some of us learned EARLY on is that there are some folks who we just don't want to show up at a rally or political event.

Now, step back - are you one of those people?

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My own answer:
No, I'm not one of those people.

I open carry. I started doing it 9 years ago because I didn't have a CWP and it was a comfortable and convenient alternative to being unarmed. A few years ago my wife got me a gift certificate to the CWP class for Christmas. Now I can choose to carry concealed or open, and oftentimes I still choose open. It's still a comfortable and convenient way to carry.

I never even knew it was supposed to be such a problem until I saw some peoples reactions to the idea on packing.org and now THR. It's never freaked anybody out or caused me any problems.

I've become a vocal proponent of the right to open carry simply because I have seen so much FUD and misinformation from people that ought to know better. I'm really tired of people saying that "the only reason why someone would open carry" is because they crave attention, or they want to get in people's faces, or they need to prove a point. That might be true for some open carriers, but it's insulting to apply that stereotype to all of us.

It's really strange to hear supposed supporters of the RKBA saying that I shouldn't be exercising a right that I've had forever because "people aren't ready for it". Better yet are the fears it will suddenly result in some dire consequence that hasn't happened in the past few centuries that people have been open carrying.

This thread has brought out some of the elitest elitists I've ever seen.

I've started a few threads like this at various forums (not here) and they really don't ever achieve anything.

If you're really concerned about it, OP and others, just PM anyone who is expressing that type of attitude or expressing their views in a way that displeases you. Nobody reading this thread is thinking "Oh yeah, I must be the elitist he is speaking of," so it probably isn't doing any good.

Dialogue, not monologue.

What I particularly hate to see are posts that basically say "Mommy and Daddy won't let me have a gun." Well, maybe there's a reason...

At any rate, if you're gonna live at Mommy and Daddy's, you play by their rules. And if you want to live at Mommy and Daddy's until you're 45, you need a clue...

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I quite agree with bogie on this one. When I was 12 or 13 I was given ammo for the pistol I was given at 8 yrs. old. That was a long time ago and in a bush community in Alaska.

I'm pretty sure that my folks would have taken responsibility for anything I did with that old revolver. They trusted me.

I wish that I could do the same for my son, I trust him. I would take responsibility for his actions. But times are different now.

If you doubt me, go ahead and start an OC thread. Watch how many holier-than-thous will jump in condemning OC for a dozen reasons.

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I've been open about open carrying since I started posting on TFL nearly a decade ago. It has always been a controversial issue, but I'm not sure why that should give rise to cries of "elitism." Are you expecting everyone to agree about the choice of open carry as the next great battle? Different pro-gun cultures around the country have VERY different attitudes about OC. In Texas it's practically criminal brandishment, up here it's common enough I bike around with a long arm and walked into supermarkets with a rifle and nobody batted an eye. I think the Texicans are a might confused about many things, including the comparative size of their homeland to Alaska. But I would not call them "elitist" for disagreeing with me. This is just something we're going to have to keep debating and hash out.

up here it's common enough I bike around with a long arm and walked into supermarkets with a rifle and nobody batted an eye.

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That's why I love Alaska.

Is this what people are talking about, I wonder?

A victory in Heller will ironically lead to a much less unified political position. One branch will continue to view the RKBA in absolute terms and view any interpretation as a concession. They are likely to be less and less satisfied as more court opinions come down fleshing out the limits of the Second. Another branch will accept the changes and move on. Indeed for these people the protection of the courts against the worst excesses of the anti-gun groups will cause them to be much less focused on the RKBA. This, in turn, will expose the many grounds for division within RKBA ranks. Political, regional, cultural, etc.

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http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=350294&highlight=heller+split

Is this what people are talking about, I wonder?

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It's got nothing to do with what I am talking about. What I see as the problem is more of a general attitude than a specific reaction to a topic and it has been here long before the Heller decision.

Ctdonath really did explain it better than I seem to be able to do...

ctdonath said:

I've noted it too. A growing number of posters accept and promote restrictions on behavior, including (with many vigorous threads thereon)
- don't open carry (ever)
- don't carry in airports (despite GA legislature specifically legalizing it)
- don't carry when drinking (even one glass of wine at a fine restraunt)
- you're too young to carry (barely under 21)
- licensing should be required (to no discernable purpose)
- training should be required (more as restriction than education)
- nobody needs a MG (even if a personal M16 is exactly what the FFs had in mind)
- don't challenge infringing laws
- a felony conviction for merely possessing a standard-capacity AR15 mag in NY is reason to lose one's RKBA
among others.

Now, most certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion, which many here will defend even if disagreeing therewith.
It does, however, seem to me (and apparently others) that the assortment of accepted restrictions is growing in adherents, who are increasingly adamant about others submitting thereto. I've been following THR and related boards for a very long time, and the density of "but of course that infringement is reasonable" comments seems growing.

It's certainly not THR policy, it's just personal views of a growing number of posters, reflecting a change in the culture - an apparent growing acceptance of long-touted "anti" positions by presumably hardcore "pro-RKBA" types.

Those saying "but what you're pushing for will lose us ground" mirrors the NRA vs. Gura et al conflict regarding Heller (nee Parker): the NRA tried hard to derail Mr. Heller et al because they feared the Big Loss - and suddenly jumped on board when it would clearly become the Big Win. Yes, I want open carry in a grocery store - if people get used to seeing OC everywhere, they'll get used to seeing OC everywhere.

Can I point to proof of the trend? Probably, but the expenditure of effort for it far exceeds the payoff. It's an impression, which apparently I am not alone in achieving.

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When I first saw the thread topic, I thought to myself, "this should be interesting."

As I have read the posts, I would say I have seen a form of elitism rear its ugly head in Strategy and Tactics on a regular basis.

For as long as I have been a member of THR, I read with interest the different scenarios, real or hypothetical, that people get into and one thing that has really started to bother me for the last while is the elite and sometimes smug attitude of some posters.

When it comes to different scenarios it seems many have one of the following general type of statements:

-I would never be caught off guard and be in that situation.
-I would never be unprepared if I faced that situation.
-I would never have to take that kind of action in that situation.
-I could talk my way out of that situation.
-It is best to not be there in the first place.

Etc...

I guess the elitism that bugs me is the idea that these posters are just so much smarter, more aware, more prepared, and better equipped to handle these types of lethal situations because they would never be put in that situation in the first place.

Do they think the people that do get stuck in these situations were planning on it or looking for a fight? I can understand some situations where it would benefit people to be more aware, but sometimes things happen in such a way that your preparation isn't going to keep you from being involved.

It kind of gets old and I don't have the time or interest to PM each one and debate it personally, but nonetheless, I think it applies to this topic.

Who knows.

but, I'm not even allowed to have an opinion

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No, you can have an opinion. However, the rest of us are neither required to agree with it, nor, quite necessarily, respect it a great deal.

Keep in mind that some folks here are speaking from experience, whereas others are speaking from theory. There -is- a difference there, folks...

Right now, regarding open carry, we've got an advantage. And we can lose that advantage if we are perceived as a hazard, rather than neutral or a positive. Attitude is seen by many as "hazard." Attitude is what causes "blood in the streets." The first thing, and we've discussed this long and hard on THR, back before a lot of you joined, about CCW is that you need to leave your attitude at the door. Some guy flips you off driving, smile, wave, and disengage. Some guy in a restaurant is looking at your girlfriend, or you, and trying to start something - you do NOT want to escalate it into a deadly weapon confrontation. So disengage.

Attitude scares me. Attitude gets loud and messy situations started.

Remember - we want to reinforce with the Public At Large that we are the good guys, right? So lose the attitudes. Then, maybe, you are qualified to open carry.

Those of you who have already lost the attitudes know what I'm talking about.

Attitude scares me. Attitude gets loud and messy situations started.

Remember - we want to reinforce with the Public At Large that we are the good guys, right? So lose the attitudes. Then, maybe, you are qualified to open carry.

Those of you who have already lost the attitudes know what I'm talking about.

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Grrr... them's fightin' words!

When it comes to different scenarios it seems many have one of the following general type of statements:

-I would never be caught off guard and be in that situation.
-I would never be unprepared if I faced that situation.
-I would never have to take that kind of action in that situation.
-I could talk my way out of that situation.
-It is best to not be there in the first place.

Etc...

I guess the elitism that bugs me is the idea that these posters are just so much smarter, more aware, more prepared, and better equipped to handle these types of lethal situations because they would never be put in that situation in the first place.

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Camslam...thank you for actually providing examples that can be discussed rather than amorphous "we's" and "they say...".

When you present it like that, I have to say I agree. I don't know if it's elietism as much as it is internet bravado or just plain ole blow-hardedness. Yours is a far more compelling argument than "I'm not alowed to have an opinion".

No clue on where my post went here or on the WWWeb - duh!

I lost my post here on the WWWeb... sigh. Oh well. I will not retype it all over again.

I pushed send but I have NO clue where it went.

Oh well, it was a soap box speech, with my high heels on, about gun rights and all RIGHTS including some attitudes.

GUN CONTROL = CONTROL. Period!

What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED do some people not understand?!?

There is an attitude in my NOT so humble opinion. You know what they say about opinions, eh? They are like belly buttons and we all have one! Ha ha.

Catherine - Armed and Female
An Open Carry Lady married to a man who carries BOTH ways. I did NOT have that right according to the 'law' in my former state where I lived for over 30 years with my late husband. Yes, I fought and did many things to change that freaking UNconstitutional law too. Double grin.

PS

PS

We should NOT have to change anyone's opinion on who WE are or what WE stand for when it comes to a basic RIGHT. We ALL (Pro gunners, anti gunners and those middle of the road gunners!) have those basic fundamental RIGHTS whether some of THEM or some of YOU or some of US want to use them in any way. Open or conceal or any type of CARRY!

That means if that RIGHT is God given or natural given or a FILL IN THE BLANK RIGHT no matter on how you want to WORD IT.

A right is a right.

Some people do think and believe that THEIR rights are better than your rights or my rights because of those gun control laws that they worship at the altar of... along with the ones who passed those laws.

Catherine

That means if that RIGHT is God given or natural given or a FILL IN THE BLANK RIGHT no matter on how you want to WORD IT.

A right is a right.

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In theory, I agree with you 100%. The devil, as it is said, is in the details. I live in the great state of Texas, and open carry is, as of now, illegal. It is *so* illegal that if my shirt rides up and someone sees my gun and has a snit fit, I can lose my right to carry because of a brandishment charge. Sigh. We're working on changing that, and when our next legislative session comes up in January '09, we have some hope of finally seeing it.

That said....

I'd like to turn this debate on its head here. If you want *elitism* charges, let's take a look at the folks for whom open carry is apparently the litmus test of a person's true RKBA identification. Those whose braggadocio leads us to assume that, were they in Texas, by George they'd march right up to the State Capitol with their gun out for all the world to see just to show whoever what real 2A supporters DO.

This, FAR more, than open carry opponents, gets my goat. Because they are looking down their ever-so-pure-2A noses at those of us who have to live with restriction or go to frickin' JAIL.

This is a sword that cuts both ways. For those who feel put upon by OC opponents, go spend some time looking at your side's arguments.

And for the record, I **am** pro-OC, and hope fervently for its legality in Texas next year.

Springmom

QUOTE:

I've noted it too. A growing number of posters accept and promote restrictions on behavior, including (with many vigorous threads thereon)
- don't open carry (ever)

ETC.
~~~~~

This poster and the OP nailed it on the head when it comes to many so called RKBA people. Thank you!

Gun people can be their own worst enemies at times.

As far as saying who you would want to be in your political rally or any pro gun group... when so called RKBA people say we don't want THIS type or THAT type because, God forbid, THEY might be too radical or freedom loving people = liberty minded folks... well to me, NO offense to some of you, that is downright ridiculous too.

Yes, I see it here and all over so called RKBA gun and liberty (?!?) political boards which DO allow, gasp, politics as in GUN politics. You can't sway from the fact that gun issues are gun p o l i t i c s.

Me = I think that ALL gun laws should be abolished along with MOST alphabet agencies. If you are in jail or in an insane asylum - no guns for you. Once you get released, served your time, got healed, etc. - you should have ALL of your RIGHTS restored to YOU including gun rights in my NOT so humble opinion.

Catherine - Armed and Female - Open Carry Lady
PS: Thanks to the ones who stand UP for open carry HERE.

Hello lady - Spring Mom,

Where I used to live in farm/lake country... I could not even have a loaded gun in my vehicle or conceal carry. Many places did not allow open carry - what a joke!

I understand what bs that you have to put up with as what I had to put up with along with my late husband and many others not even counting the east coast and/or his military time.

Thanks for your input.

Blessings to you and yours,

Catherine