State authorities asking gun owners to allow guns to be test fired.

Canada has had "real" handgun registration since 1934.
I read about a year ago ,a statement by the RCMP,when they were asked how many crimes had been solved by the Registry.
The answer was none in 73 years.

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I think Chicago was once forced to admit the same thing, although they tried to claim several cases that actually were solved other ways but involved registered guns.

md has ballistic finger printing and box score is 0 there also i don't recall how many years and samples so far. on the other hand the dna testing program is gaining momentum and more convictions in cold cases in va

miranda in actual practice is often misunderstood with comical results

Aren't LEO required to conduct investigations based on the facts?

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You need to understand how most criminal cases work. Most times, the cops know (or think they know which can be a real problem when they are wrong) who the perp is soon after the crime. The investigation in those cases focuses on getting the evidence to prove it.

If they don't know who did it within a few weeks, they almost never will unless the crook gets ratted out somehow.

It appears they don't have a clue in this case, and are grasping at any straw they can.

I have some sympathy for their plight. They are probably getting some heat to solve the crime. That this is the best thing they could come up with is sad.

I would say this is no different than if they got a tire print from a crime scene that was unique enough that they could match it to a specific size and brand of tire. Its not a horrible idea for them to go around to tire stores in the area looking for purchasers of the tire. Probably not real productive, but when you have nothing else...

you skim past the link on the guy who voluntarily submitted his dna to try to senfd his brother up for murder? got nailed himself for a cold case rape.

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In a case like that it is a targeted search based on the fact that the brother of the suspect would have the same Y chromosome, and if they are full brothers would have the same mitochondrial DNA as well. That's rather different from taking DNA samples from everyone who happened to be in the general vicinity of the murder.

Letting the police have broad and non-specific power to search is like issuing them the writs of assistance that figured heavily into the colonists' revolt against the King.

Also, it has been very clearly established that the police do have a requirement to inform you of your rights under some circumstances (Miranda).

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At the risk of disclosing too much info...

I wasn't mirandized when I was arrested (minor drug charge at 18, was dismissed, and I don't use drugs) for, essentially, hanging out with the wrong crowd.

My lawyer told me that if it had been a couple years earlier, the case would have been dismissed since I wasn't read Miranda.

In NC, to my knowledge, whether the accused is mirandized or not ends up being a factor in court if he or she incriminates himself or herself during the arrest or detainment, but does not result in a de facto dismissal (any more). I'm sure it's also dealt with on an administrative level if it is a frequent occurrence.

As for the search thing, think again. There are tons of stories about cops saying "I'm going to search your car." They do not say "You are required to let me search your car," but they certainly do not say "You have a right to refuse this search."

It is possible that a good lawyer would get the case dismissed in this instance, but that is not the norm...

Do they really think that someone who legally has the gun is responsible? I continue to be amazed by how stupid people can be.

I seriously doubt the perp in this case was on their list of "registered" owners

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agree + 1

Harmonic said:

A guy from Stillwater, OK, posted the following:

One of my employees just told me that on the news last night the OSBI were also asking people to report anyone they knew in the area that had unregistered guns in that caliber.

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This is getting weird.

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One more reason not to tell anyone what firearms you own. Certainly not casual acquaintances like co-workers.

I would guess the brass was also found which is why they had it narrowed to a glock thanks to the distinctive brass a glock leaves. From there hit up local ffl's and look for 4473's for glocks .40's. It course would neglect old purchases, guns brought in from out of state, ftf purchases, etc.

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[I've been out of town and just now catching up]

A really smart criminal would use a S&W 610 (or a .38-40, or any non-Glock semiauto and pick up his brass, etc) and leave behind a Glock casing picked up from the range as a false lead.

Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents knew the caliber of the guns used in the killings, so they merely checked with area gun dealers and pawnshops to determine who had bought or recently pawned .40-caliber Glocks.

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Are there any FFLs involved in this thread who actually know the law regarding 4473s? It was my understanding that 4473s are records required by Federal law and that they are not subject to inspection by local or state authorities, and are subject to inspection by the BATFE only under specific circumstances.

Which suggests that some gun dealers either do not know the laws under which they operate, or were persuaded to "voluntarily" allow the OSBI to inspect the 4473s even if they didn't have to.

My question is, is "voluntarily" allowing state or local authorities to inspect the 4473s legal under the Federal law, or is it a violation of Federal law for an FFL to allow anyone other than the BATFE to inspect the 4473s?

I am disgusted.

I cannot believe people on this board would voluntarily speak to the police for any reason, sans a subpoena or warrant.

The following videos explain why you should NEVER speak to the police:

http://www.tangledwilderness.org/orc/2008/why-even-the-innocent-should-never-speak-to-the-police/

To sum up for those that cant/won't view the movies:

Nothing you say to the police can ever help you. Anything you say to the police can only hurt you, and be used against you.

you skim past the link on the guy who voluntarily submitted his dna to try to senfd his brother up for murder? got nailed himself for a cold case rape.

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Do you consider a rapist going to jail a bad thing?

absolutly not! i was using that to show how contray to the delisions so openly expressed here criminals do give up incriminating evidence apparently halo din't skim deep enough

"Nothing you say to the police can ever help you. Anything you say to the police can only hurt you, and be used against you.
__________________

demonstrably untrue

this is a shock i know but its not always about you. in society there is for some a sacrifice for the good of others or socirty. its hard for some to comprehend. more so for those gallant warriors on the frontlines fighting collectivism. i venture that for most of the folks that went willingly its wasn't even viewed as a sacrifice. different folks have different character

those gallant warriors on the frontlines fighting collectivism

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C'daddy, I'm going to ask you to please drop the un-subtle condescending sarcasm. This is not the first instance of it in this thread. It is not very high-road, and is distracting from a very important discussion.

Thanks, bro.

this is a shock i know but its not always about you. in society there is for some a sacrifice for the good of others or socirty. its hard for some to comprehend. more so for those gallant warriors on the frontlines fighting collectivism. i venture that for most of the folks that went willingly its wasn't even viewed as a sacrifice. different folks have different character

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Exactly what are you implying here? That folks who don't act as you would are lesser beings ethically and morally?

Why the attitude and the pithy comments about 'gallant warriors fighting collectivism'? Do you hold the founders of this nation in equal contempt?

Just because there wasn't a blatant violation of law and due process doesn't mean this whole sorry ordeal is right. Legal =/= right in all cases.

absolutly not! i was using that to show how contray to the delisions so openly expressed here criminals do give up incriminating evidence apparently halo din't skim deep enough

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Nope, I read the article you linked and my reading comprehension skills are quite adequate. In that case the police already had reason to suspect one individual, and requesting a DNA sample from a male sibling would be the confirmation they needed. If the brother had not voluntarily given it, they would have obtained it with a warrant. That is very different from casting blanket suspicion onto an entire group, a group that is not materially linked to a crime. The fact that the brother in that case was himself revealed as a criminal does not in any way validate the concept of demanding evidence from random people whose only link to a crime is that they happen to live in the county where it was committed.

miranda in actual practice is often misunderstood with comical results

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Comical for whom?

semantics are funny demanding seems such a far cry from voluntary do they need to say please?

Quote:
miranda in actual practice is often misunderstood with comical results

Comical for whom?


the folks who get to watch some fool come into court ussually representing themselves and declare boldly to the judger "this is bogus! dat fool never read me my rights!" the look when they leave in cuffs for their trip to the country is priceless

semantics are funny demanding seems such a far cry from voluntary do they need to say please?

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Would it be possible for you to use punctuation and make at least a half hearted attempt at using decent English?

semantics are funny demanding seems such a far cry from voluntary do they need to say please?

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Sigh. It has been pretty well established throughout this thread that that letter is hardly voluntary. After the first line it uses an imperative tone, and combined with the news report where the police imply consequences for anyone who doesn't respond to their "request", it's enough to demonstrate just how "voluntary" they intended this to be.

You seem unable to look at this in an abstract way. We have here a police agency trying to strongarm citizens into handing over evidence without any judicial sanction, and basically telling those people "if you don't want to be considered a suspect, you better get down here now and prove you're not the murderer". That is profoundly un-American. If they think one of those people might be involved in the crime then tell it to a judge and get a warrant, then they can take whatever evidence they need. The legal system of this country is founded upon probable cause and limited scope, not a free-for-all allowing the police to do whatever they damn well please just because there's a crime to solve.

OK Trooper Nicky Green was murdered by one Malone on December 26, 2003. Malone had a meth lab in his car on the side of the highway. A fight broke out when Trooper Green tried to handcuff Malone. Trooper Green was killed with his own service pistol, a .40 Glock. The Troopers car camera caught much of the fight that lead up to the execution style murder of Green.

The Troopers gun has never located.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?cite=2007+OK+CR+34

hmmmm do they keep ballistics on cop guns? in hind sight it might be a good idea. and if thats the gun solving this one is a 2 for one

In addition to the moral and constitutional violations, the actual testing poses a problem.

If a test is done without showing the testing process to the owner of the gun, how is he to know that the testing process was accurate? Even if everyone is honest, mistakes can be made. This happens with test results from medical laboratories quite often.

If the testing process is not shown to the owner of the gun, and results are merely announced at some point, how can the gun owner verify anything?

There is a great deal of similarity in this kind of testing to vote counting.