.22LR stopping power?

Posted by loneviking:
22LR for defense? My mind goes back through the years to the night a woman was brought into the E.R. having been shot by her angry ex. He dumped the entire 15 rd. magazine of a semi-auto 22 into her at close range. She had to go to surgery, and stayed a few days in the hospital--but she lived and was alert and talking when she came in.

I'm not using a 22LR for self defense...

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Amen to that!

loomis 22mag is not up for debate yes it has enough power to penetrate both sides of a normal human skull...


but thats not the only debate with rim fire... the whole idea of rim fire is less reliable than a center fire option..


rim fires are notorious for not having primer around the entire rim and if you just so happen to find the part of the rim without primer you have 1 of the scariest sounds in the world....


for the record the 2 most scary sounds in the world are
a. a click when there is supposed to be a bang
b. a bang when there is supposed to be a click....

I think the debate has turned into lethality vs. stopping power (which was the OP's actual question) of a .22LR. No one can debate that a .22 can be lethal for targets on 4 or 2 legs. The issue of stopping power, however, is about immediately ending the forward attack of an aggressor. This is either accomplished by dumping enough energy into the body to put him on the ground (dead or alive), or with a mechanical hit--using a round with enough mass to destroy the skeletal mechanics, like a hip joint, when hit. The .22 simply doesn't have the mass to do either. It may result in a psychological stop from the realization of "I've been shot", but even a (eventually) lethal shot can allow a BG plenty of time to attack, hurt or kill you before he actually loses enough blood to stop him from continuing an attack. It's a good hunting round for small to medium game/varmints, but for human size threats it just isn't a dependable self-defense round.

hotshotshoting: the stinger would be just fine. I chose the super-X because that's what I shoot...I don't hunt and (unless they're in 12ga packaging) I don't consider .22 for defense, so my 10-22 (and soon the MkIII) are simply loud hole punchers. But since we're talking defensive capabilities, if you know a better round then lets use that--I'm more than happy to yield to your expertise.

completely inadequate

However, I believe more people have been killed by .22 than any other cartridge, go figure.

Is a 22 a "one shot stopper", no.

Is it better than nothing, or a sharp stick, yes.

Will 99% of the criminal population disengage once they see you are armed with -anything- that goes BANG! Likely so.

IMHO. Your mileage may vary. No warranty express or implied. Void in all 50 states, PR and other US possessions. Any resemblance to any real person living or dead, or to any historical event is a damn shame.

I wonder, ...

What is the ratio of criminals who are stopped by the mere sight of a gun, any gun, to criminals who can't be stopped by anything short of being cut in half by that monster gatling gun they build A-10s around?



There are times when its best to make decisions considering the worst-case scenario and there are times its best to make decisions based on the normal-case scenario.

If the weird, window-rattlings thuds that woke us last night had been someone trying to break in rather than just 1am bombing/artillery from Ft. Bragg (we identified the sound after we were fully awake), I'd have rather have had the .38 special carry gun I'm saving for. But I'd have been confident that at least 99% of bad guys would be stopped by the 10 shots of .22lr from my Mark III that I can get off accurately as fast as DH can fire 5 from his 9mm.

Its good to allow for the worst-case, but its not unreasonable to base decisions on average-case.

So the person may not even be aware of being hit but die a day or two later.

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I find it difficult to believe that a person could get hit with a 22 round and not be aware of it.

When an ant bites me I'm aware of it.

zip have you ever seen anyone on pcp?

I slammed a guy on PCP flat on his back on concrete from chest level and he never even flinched--a .22 ain't doing d*^% in that case. Anything short of a mechanical stop will fail to stop him. If you're relying on a .22, pack a lunch...it's gonna be a looooong day.

The only .22lr I would use for defense would be my Mark II Government Target Model. Multiple hits to the perps head would pretty much stop the attack, . . . . .and that gun definitely has the ability to do so, out to 25 yards.

Zip7

"I find it difficult to believe that a person could get hit with a 22 round and not be aware of it."

Remember when Hinkley shot Reagan? He was in the hospital a good 10 minutes before -anybody- realized he had been shot, including him.

Is a 22 lr useable for self defense?
Yes. Not only is it better than nothing, it is also better than a sharp stick, ball bat, knife or even a .45 that was left at home.

Is it ideal?
No. Niether is a 9mm, .40, 45 or .50 AE. Pistols are for fighting your way back to the rifle you never should have left behind.

A self defense pistol is a compromise. Small size & low weight vs power. Economics also plays a factor (can you afford the gun AND the ammo to routienly practice?).

If all you have available is a .22 lr, then practice practice practice. Don't trust studies on how well the ammo penetrates ... do your own. Bullets penetrate water roughly twice as far as balistic gel - use milk jugs or ziplock bags. Know your gun, it's capabilities and limitations (as well as your own).

If, however, you can afford a larger caliber carry gun, and can shoot one accurately that is small enough to carry with you all the time, it would be prudent to choose a larger / more powerful caliber.

A 22lr is deadly if well placed. If the target is shot enough, it is deadly. There are generally two kinds of people you will face. Sober and drunk and/or crazy. Sober will get pain compliance and panic feeling of being shot if the shots are not in vital points. Drunk/crazy need vital area shots to be brought down. Drunk can be referring to any drug though. Is it worth the risk of saving for a little longer and purchasing something that will suck the liver out the exit wound with it??

If the the BG weighs over 40 pounds and is not naked......I want some heavy bellets to send his way. Even if you put 2-3 well placed rounds of 45 in the heart or central mass of the body it could take a couple of minnutes for the BG to bleed out and stop. 5 rounds of 12 Ga. 00-buckssot or slugs would be my personal defense choice!

Even if you put 2-3 well placed rounds of 45 in the heart or central mass of the body it could take a couple of minnutes for the BG to bleed out and stop.

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Through the heart its more like 15 seconds but that's still time where they can return fire if they're really determined. Remember as the circulatory system is collapsing the abilities of the wounded is in decline and are being increasingly impaired as time passes.

Only in fiction and movies do you see the "monsters" that can absorb bullets and keep on going as if nothing happened. You occasionally read about assailants that continue to fight after being shot in locations that are lethal but they go down eventually though not as fast as you may like.

While a .22 LR may only put an assailant down only 25% of the time with one shot CM when you have to shoot them, as others have said most criminals know better than to push their luck against any armed potential victim. A knife is as deadly as any gun, more so if the person wielding it is trained but I'd take 15' of distance and a .22 LR over a knife or a club.

like the perp who was shot over 60 times with 9mm and kept shooting.... it finally took 3 rounds of 12g to put him down.... ill find the police report if i have time

Data

I purchased a 22 pistol to kill trapped varmints- raccoons. The dealer said the skull was very strong, and to be sure and use CCI HP. I was worried about going through the skull and the round bouncing around. So being a science guy, I tried an experiment.

Pressure treated 2x4 with CCI HP at 6 inches, S&W 22a semiauto.
Bullet went right through. Tried a 4x4- went right through.

Got some 22 Shorts-
2x4: right through
4x4: slug in the wood
2x3: Slug exited

Now, I do not know but I strongly suspect a single layer of persons skull is NOT as strong as a 2x4, nor is the sternum.

So I suspect that the issue of stopping power is not as significant as the point or impact. Hit something vital and the target is going down. Hit a muscle and it will probably go through.

I only have a 22 pistol- if I need something for defense that will be it.

Personally, as long as I can keep my sh*t together, I think I have a chance. With 10 rounds to bring him down. And on the bullseye range I can put 10 rounds in a 3 inch circle in 5 seconds. And I have 3 more mags.

22 rounds and jamming- yes, an issue. But it beats a baseball bat or tennis racket!

I'd rather have something bigger than a .22.
In most cases, if you can handle a full sized .22 handgun you can handle a K-frame .38 Special. And even a 158 grain LRN will probably be better than a .22.

But for those who can't handle anything more, I say load your .22 with the most reliable, highest velocity solids you can get and don't worry too much.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Nuff said

Professional assassins know very well the effectiveness of a .22 round at point-blank range - tends to enter(but not exit) the braincase, and bounce around causing all sorts of havoc. Before getting excited, though, visualize how small a target that actually is, and though you can punch paper all day, can you do it in the dark while stoked with adrenaline? Ever seen what even buck fever can do to people?

I always find these threads somewhat amusing.

Having spent time as a police officer, I have seen .22 shooting victims. I've never seen one who didn't know he'd been shot. In fact, all the victims were either writhing arond on the gurney, or were totally out of it, as in unconsious.

We had one shooting with three victims at once, from an assault. There was this bar on Comercial street in Trinidad Colorado called Giovani's. One night in April of 1978, a buch of punks attacked a couple guys who were not of thier crowd, with pool ques, beer bottles, and a knife or two. The two young guys being attacked fled out the door and into the street. The attackers chased after them. One of the young men being chased had a cheap little .22 RG revolver in the pocket. While running, he fired all six shots back at his persuers. Three of the shots missed anything.

Three did not.

Shooting victim number 1- When we got there just a few minutes later, he was laying in a fetal position, with a bullet in the lower stomach area. He was unresponsive aside from whimpering in pain. Survived after 5 hours of emergency surgery.

Shooting victim number 2- was hit in the upper area of the shoulder, was sitting on his butt leaning back against the wall of a store, moaning that it hurts, he needs an ambulance. Was in a great deal of pain, was not walking around.

Shooting victim number three- was standing around, macho posturing, with a bullet hole in his upper bicep of one arm. Saying how getting shot don't bother him at all. As the EMT gently took his arm and turned it to check for a exit wound, Mr. macho yelled "OOWW, don't move it man!" So much for getting shot not bothering him. I guess it didn't as long as that arm didn't move.

As all three of the shooting victims were of the family that was the town slime, not much sympathy was expressed for them, expept to take up a collection for the young man who had to defend himself, to get shooting lessons.

But, of the bunch of 6 to 8 of the attackers, all of them hit the pavement ducking for cover when fired on, and the three that were hit were done for the night. On capturing the two young guys who were attacked, one was found with a .22 RG revolver that had been loaded with .22 LONG, STANDARD VELOCITY. This was established by a few spare rounds of ammo in his pants pocket. The .22 had stopped an assaault by a group of known gang members, who were at the time drunk, or in some cases, high on something else. There were no fatalities, but all hit stopped what they were doing imediatly.

One other shooting I witnessed in my life, involving a .22 convinced me it was nothing to underate.

When I was a kid, dad took us to the mountains for the weekend. It was common in the 1950's for Washinton D.C. people to escape the city heat by going to the mountians. We went to the Shenedoah National park usually, and rented a cabin. This time we didn't make it all the way. We had stopped for lunch at a picnic ground just outside of Front Royal Virginia. A few other familys were there, and mom had a packed basket. As we were settling in, three men came out of the woods. Rough, dirty, and looking less than upstandng. Two of them had a large sheath knife on a belt. They came up towards our table and asked dad if he had any beer money.

At this point dad had placed himself between us and the men. Dad often carried his old Colt Woodsman when traveling, and this was no exeption. He'd had it since 1937, and it was part of him. It was tucked in back of his right hip, but forward, inside the waistband.

One of the men, maybe drunker or more brazen, I'll never know, stepped closer and started cursing dad, calling him some pretty bad names because dad was not giving them a hand out, saying how he could afford a nice new Pontiac Star Chief, so he should be able to give them a few bucks. Again, dad politly told the men to leave. It was not to be.

The more abusive one took out his large sheath knife and threatened dad. Dad took out his Colt .22 and told the man to back away and leave us be. The man with the knife again cursed dad, telling him he didn't have the guts to use that gun, and then he took a step towards dad, and dad shot him.

The man kind of hunched up and staggered a little, partly doubled over, then cursed and came at dad again in a lunge, and dad shot him two more times. The man fully doubled over, going to his knees for a moment, then falling over on his side and going fetal. He moaned loudly for a moment, then quieted down. After a moment all movement and moaning stopped. The man with the family at the next picnic table went down the road to a pay phone to call the police. The other two men had fled at the first shot, and were nowhere to be seen.

The police investigated, and dad was found to have acted in self defence. The other family as witnesses helped, as was the fact that the dead man was a known trouble maker with a record of assaults.

Seeing someone die right in front of you makes a life long impression. Maybe thats partly why I see these posts and some of the replies, I have to just shake my head. A .22 is like ANY gun, a very dangerous weapon. It will kill you, and stop an attack. I don't know where the mythical 250 pound crack adict is that is going to absorb a bunch of rounds and then take the gun away from you. When you take out a major organ, blood presure drops and the person looses concousness. Heart and liver make up a large part of the center of mass in the human torso. take them out and the person goes down. Some people need to stop reading those gun magazines and the bull hockey they print to sell the stuff the advertisers want them to push.

Is the .22 an ideal defence gun? Of course not. A .38 is better, as is a 9mm. But on the other side of the coin, if you have a .22 and you do your part, it will work just fine. The thing that is going to make a difference is the man behind the gun. Who would you put your money on; a inner city gang banger holding his High Point sideways, or Bill Jordan with a .22 target pistol?

With some economic hard time, some people can't really afford to shoot alot of ammo aside from .22's. What would be better for a person to use if something goes bump in the night, a ..38 or whatever that hasn't been shot in a year, or the .22 they just had out at the range day before yesterday. The .22 that they have been putting hundreds of rounds a week through because they love to shoot, and the .22 is the only gun they can afford to shoot alot?

The human factor is the wild card. It all comes down to the person behind the gun in the end. Gun club comando's who quote Guns and Ammo magazine not withstanding.

.22LR in action.

Lethal but not optimal for combat (including civilian self defense) purposes.

Signing in.

My first real gun was a .22 LR
(Remington Nylon 66).

Now I own a Marlin 39A
and want a SW 317.

SD? .38 spl/.357 mag.

But given a rock v .22 LR,
I'll take the accuracy and velocity.

An attacker may die days later,
but at least he'll die.

Carl,

Thanks for the voice of reason based on real experience and not just magazine and internet regurgitation.

I agree with you completely.

NQ

+2 Carl .... Thank you for that post.

While I normally carry a .32, .380, or 9mm, I confess to sometimes having a Beretta 21A in .22LR. My right hand is not what it once was and I can shoot the 21A well. I'm not saying everyone should do this, but I sometimes do. If I know I will be in a bad area, the S&W 6946 goes with me though.

BTW: For the Reagan example; as I recall he took a ricochet, not a direct hit. At the time he was being pushed into the limo by Secret Service and thought the agent had broken his ribs...he was in pain and did know that he was injured....from everything I have read on the incident.
By that same example, look at what happened to those 6 rounds fired: One shot hit Brady in the head and he was permanently disabled. One hit DCPD officer Delahanty and he spent 11 days in the hospital. One missed and hit a window. One hit Secret Service Agent McCarthy in the chest. One hit the limo window. And one shot ricocheted off the limo and hit Reagan under his left arm (past a rib to stop in a lung near his heart). Six .22LR's from an RG14...none of the Devastator rounds exploded...but four men required immediate surgery, one was permanently disabled. Lowly .22LR or not, I wouldn't have liked to be any of those men.

According to Chuck Hawks the best "stopping power" round is the 357mag with a 96% stop rate. So does that mean we all should carry a 357mag and sell our other guns? Of course not. I used to carry one of the NAA Black Widows in 22mag. and past 10' I couldn't hit the target with it. Some times now I carry a Taurus PT25 or my Taurus PT58 when not carring my Kahr MK9 9mm. Do I feel undergunned with the mouse guns? NO. Because I practice with them and know their abilities as well as mine. My daughter likes the PT25 because it's "cute". At least she has a gun with her when she's coming home late. Would I rather she have the 380, 9, or something larger? Heck yea, but at least she has it.