Some questions about the Budd Dwyer suicide.

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Witnessing death in the internet can be damaging to you. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder can IMHO possible effect you.
PTSD is real. Your mind, when you see it can possibly not be ready for the impact it sees.
Very true. We all see it in the movies and that's OK, it's the movies. When it's real, it is something else entirely. I watched an amateur video of the crash of a P-80 in our area. I had seen this pilot perform a few times and was looking forward to seeing him again on the upcoming Sunday. Saturday, he augered into the ground during the show. When I saw the footage, I was physically ill for the rest of the day.
 
Witnessing death in the internet can be damaging to you. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder can IMHO possible effect you.

I'm not sure I'm prepared to accept that, PTSD (hypothetically) is what makes me dive for cover when I hear a car backfire. Watching someone die on the internet doesn't meet the criteria to me because it leaves a lot out. When somebody dies like that you can smell the blood. You also have to deal W/the fact that they evacuate their bowels & bladder as the muscles become flaccid. The internet doesn't capture that aspect of death.

As some of the other guys with medical experience have alluded to, there's a certain amount of clinical detachment that comes from prolonged exposure. When the Nick Berg video surfaced I remember watching it and amidst all the revulsion and horror people were expressing I remember taking one look and thinking "It's fake. There's no way in Hell you take someone's head off W/that little blood."

So (IMO) being traumatized by this tape is a little overly dramatic.
 
This thread is very low road. So low it's in the cellar. HSO was at least good enough to edit the OP's post with a big red letter warning, but it should have been locked/deleted.

Morbid curiosity at tragic events that happen to others is human nature . . . the dark part of our nature that does not need to be shared on an internet forum.
 
This thread is very low road. So low it's in the cellar. HSO was at least good enough to edit the OP's post with a big red letter warning, but it should have been locked/deleted.

Morbid curiosity at tragic events that happen to others is human nature . . . the dark part of our nature that does not need to be shared on an internet forum.

Sorry, sir, but I think you're on the wrong side of history here. Your fellow travelers are the people who held back medicine for centuries by forbidding physicians from dissecting human corpses.

Morbid curiousity? Not hardly. I've been a emergency nurse for many years. I'm the guy who refuses to accompany non-clinical staff when they want to go gawk at the site of the the tragedy of the day.

If you do see me at such a site then it will be because I came up on it while driving before the paramedics get there. I'll be the one down there trying to render aid. And that's the same reason, I'll look at videos such as this: to see if I can garner some nugget of information that might give me insight when I next deal with a suicidal patient.

Now, if doing such things panders to your morbid curiosity then don't do them!

But for me, as well as others on this thread, watching things such as this are part of our jobs. Not to mention crawling right into the middle of such events.
 
I saw this long ago in training...

... in a galaxy far, far away... or so it seems.

The revolver is most definitely a Smith & Wesson. It is blue and not a L frame, as it has no full length underlug.

From the relative size of his hand and the rather obvious barrel length of six inches (compared to the rest of the revolver) I'd have to agree it was a K frame version. It has adjustable sights. The book shelf in the back ground confuses the front sight a bit; it might be a Baughman Quick draw sight, or - more likely on a six inch revolver - a Patridge front sight.

Note the cocked hammer. Even with the poor quality picture, there's no firing pin showing on the hammer. The only guns made in that era with frame mounted firing pin were the .22 Jet (an N frame gun) and the various .22 rimfires.

On the totality of the circumstances listed above, and from the information from the training I received those many years ago, I'd say that revolver is a K-22.

As to the wounds, in this instance, the bullet did some damage and the expanding gases venting through his head did the rest.
 
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This thread is very low road. So low it's in the cellar. HSO was at least good enough to edit the OP's post with a big red letter warning, but it should have been locked/deleted.

Morbid curiosity at tragic events that happen to others is human nature . . . the dark part of our nature that does not need to be shared on an internet forum.
Sorry, sir, but I think you're on the wrong side of history here. Your fellow travelers are the people who held back medicine for centuries by forbidding physicians from dissecting human corpses.

Morbid curiousity? Not hardly. I've been a emergency nurse for many years. I'm the guy who refuses to accompany non-clinical staff when they want to go gawk at the site of the the tragedy of the day.

If you do see me at such a site then it will be because I came up on it while driving before the paramedics get there. I'll be the one down there trying to render aid. And that's the same reason, I'll look at videos such as this: to see if I can garner some nugget of information that might give me insight when I next deal with a suicidal patient.

Now, if doing such things panders to your morbid curiosity then don't do them!

But for me, as well as others on this thread, watching things such as this are part of our jobs. Not to mention crawling right into the middle of such events.
Very well. I respect your professional, clinical curiosity about the incident (which is by no means morbid). However, this is a gun forum, not an emergency medicine forum. (As we general members are often reminded by posts being locked as "off topic".)

Discussing firearms I believe is the purpose rather than furthering medical or forensic science. What would follow? Snuff films posted with members dissecting footage for caliber, bullet weight, etc. as it applied to the damage done to actual living humans.

High road?
 
High Road? More like very low road. There are kids on this forum that don't need to see or find out where to look for stuff like this. If the original poster wants to see what happens in a shooting, do ride alongs with the cops or get an EMT license and work in that field for awhile. This isn't the place for that type of education.

And I'm a Respiratory Therapist with 25 years in the field and I've worked on a lot of shootings. We're the folks who are bagging, intubating and putting somebody like this on a ventilator if they live. So yeah, I think I'm qualified to offer an opinion on this.
 
Snuff films? Are you kidding? Talk about blowing something out of proportion!

Here is a thought, if the content of this thread disturbs you... STOP READING IT.

It would be refreshing if sane, rational adults could discuss things without someone going overboard with hyperbole trying to make some silly point. :cuss:
 
I know a phsycian who routinely attends autopsies where he is only an observer. Of shooting victims. Why? He's a shooter as well as a physician and terminal ballistics interest him from both viewpoints. Sick, I think not.

On the other hand, I could very probably attend those autopsies with him if I asked him.

I haven't been to one yet and won't be going to one. Not because I'm not interested in the findings. Just not enough to want to make a firsthand judgement. I'll take his word for it.
 
+ 1 on studying cases like this, it may be morbid but morbid is an EMOTIONAL thought. Not a OBJECTIVE thought. I saw that video last year just out of curiosity bc I heard it was a 357. It was somewhat shocking, but no big deal.

I agree with treo, I don't think you can get PTSD from a video. nightmares maybe but thats all. Hell, when I was about 8 I had a guy have a heart attack and die in front of me. Had some nightmares for awhile but thats it. I think your life needs to be in danger to devolp true PTSD
 
On The Subject Of PTSD

When I was a child my father was abusive. One of his favorite tactics was to be waiting as we came home from school, as we walked through the front door he would beat us W/out warning and send us straight to bed.

FFWD to the present I dealt with this about 10 years ago and haven't had an episode since, but I used to have panic attacks walking up to my front door of my home.

Dear old dad's 1500 miles away and I'm still conditioned to be scared to come home from work and walk into my apartment.

That, to me is a classic, clinical, example of PTSD and I just don't see the potential in a video on the internet.
 
"High Road? More like very low road. There are kids on this forum that don't need to see or find out where to look for stuff like this. If the original poster wants to see what happens in a shooting, do ride alongs with the cops or get an EMT license and work in that field for awhile. This isn't the place for that type of education."

Oh grow up. We're adults on an adult forum having an adult conversation. Adult conversations are not usually for the ears of children anyway, mostly because they would not be understood, not because someone says something "wrong". This is the High Road, not Teddy Bear Junction. If you don't want your children to read this, then don't let them. Don't police the rest of us just because you don't like it. That is what liberals do. You're a respiratory therapist, big deal. That hardly makes you an expert on public opinion or child psychology.

The OP asked a valid question pertaining only to the weapon used in the suicide. Why he wants that info is his own business, and deserves no more scrutiny than if he asked what gun Dirty Harry used. After all, Harry Callahan killed more people (albeit fictional people) than Dwyer did.

Back to the topic, it was believed that Dwyer killed himself to forgo his wife and children the hardships they would have to suffer from the loss of his pension and benefits. By killing himself, in a public setting, his survivors received 1.2 million without the scandal of a possible murder investigation on top of what they had already suffered at the trial. Dwyer picked the weapon that would do the job. A revolver, (no mechanical failures) in a strong enough caliber (.357 - no botching it and leaving himself as vegetable for god knows how long).

Suicide, for what ever reason, exists. If one cannot handle that reality, then one has a myriad of options available for dealing with it, including changing the channel or leaving the room or whatever the internet equivalent might be. Those of us who wish to discuss it as adults, will.
 
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I just hope the guy wasn't innocent. Normally suicide tends to be a selfish act.

A suicide changes a lot of things for the survivors. From personal experience.

Clutch
 
What a shame that we, all, can't let Budd Dwyer's poor soul rest in peace. I, like so many of his family and friends, have always believed the man was completely innocent of the charges leveled against him. I think he was selected to be the, 'fall guy' for a group of powerful Harrisburg politicos who managed to place the most damning evident against him onto his computer without his personal knowledge.

If the standard is, 'innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt' then all I can say is that standard was never applied to Budd Dwyer. Somebody had to swing; and Dwyer became the convenient patsy. Perhaps someone should mention that in addition to using a Smith Model 27 (Because that's what it is.) Budd Dwyer strenuously proclaimed his complete innocence until just hours before his family would have lost his retirement and pension benefits UNLESS he, somehow, managed to die in office. Personally, I'll always be convinced that an innocent man ended his own life that morning in order to provide for the welfare of his family.

(And, I've lived in Pennsylvania long enough to recognize that the kind of political thief who does this sort of thing is such a big thief that he would never have to commit suicide in order to take care of his family. In situations like this, the family usually lives, 'high off the hog' for many years before the big crook finally, if ever, gets caught.)

I hope Budd Dwyer's soul finds that peace which he was so successfully disallowed in this life. Now, how about closing this one down. It's gone on long enough.
 
Ghost Walker seems sure it was a Smith Model 27. Don't know what proof he has, but the pics I've seen would bear that out. At least the OP has one of his questions answered...

Regarding Mr. Dwyer's soul...

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5

And I'm an atheist, but that seems comforting to me somehow.

Perhaps Mr. Dwyer was a fall guy. Perhaps he was guilty. I guess we'll never know. But in doing what he did, he made sure that none forgot him, and that his family was taken care of.

Good for you, Budd.
 
lanternlad1 said:
Ghost Walker seems sure it was a Smith Model 27. Don't know what proof he has, but the pics I've seen would bear that out. At least the OP has one of his questions answered. Regarding Mr. Dwyer's soul ... "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5 And I'm an atheist, but that seems comforting to me somehow.

First, the information on the pistol was contained in several of the early new reports on the event. It stayed with me, in part, because I own the same gun. Second, my compliments! That quote from Ecclesiastes is pretty good for an atheist. I’m not an atheist; so, if you will, allow me to offer you another biblical quotation:

‘And the spirit of Samuel said unto Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?'

The living certainly have an ability to disquiet the dead. The, ‘reward’ referred to in Ecclesiastes 9:5 implies a form of conscious self-indulgence. The dead certainly receive a reward. Because the dead are judged they must stand to receive one form of reward, or another.

It is a common mistake to assume that the dead are only judged after they are resurrected. The biblical concepts of reward and punishment are much more complex than that. Don’t forget how, ‘the land’ cried out for justice during the reign of King David; and, what David did about it! That was an unusually gruesome response; however, according to scripture, it was all done without anyone sinning against The Lord.

Remember in condemning David for his sins and thereafter cursing, ‘his house’, the Prophet Nathan did NOT attribute the crucifixion of Saul’s children to David as sin. David was immediately rewarded for his adultery with Bathsheba and Uriah’s subsequent murder! After David died that reward continued because God’s curse did not depart from his house. In accord with Nathan’s prediction, God’s curse has remained closely associated with, first, Solomon and, second, with the reminder of David’s other family.

In my opinion you’d have to be a fool to fail to realize that this curse, also, remained with David’s soul, itself. As God, Himself, stated through Moses;
‘The sins of the fathers are visited upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate Me.’
Kind of gives a whole new meaning to the scriptural warning;
‘God is not to be mocked.’

Doesn’t it! ;)

Among men, Budd Dwyer's reputation and his soul, as well, are sure to remain unrequited. Human history is replete with numerous examples of this sort of behavior. Nevertheless, many men would do their own souls well were they to remember that it is also written,
'God is just!'
What men cannot, or will not, set straight God shall certainly correct. Now, one more time, why don't we abandon this thread, and leave Budd Dwyer to his rest. In any event that's what I'm going to do.
 
Dan Wesson Model 15-2 was the gun he used. I had an identical one. It is mentioned in one of the articles online.
 
So quick are those to throw the first stones.


IMHO the OP asked a sincere question and was NOT out of line. This is real life. Someone mentioned the same situation around the JFK shooting. Real life and not out of line in regards to guns and firearms. End of story. You have the RIGHT to NOT join in the discussion. Please go back and bury your head in YOUR SANDBOX. :banghead:
 
Dan Wesson Model 15-2 was the gun he used. I had an identical one. It is mentioned in one of the articles online.

OK, this really will be the last time I post in this thread. Absolutely positively no way is the pistol shown in the last picture of Budd Dwyer a Dan Wesson Model 15-2; and, I don't care what somebody read on-line.

You can see S&W's distinctive partial lug underneath the barrel on the revolver in Dwyer's hand. S&W's unique and inordinately large N-frame gap is also clearly visible between the front of the cylinder and the frame. No way that revolver could, possibly, be a Dan Wesson anything.

Damn this thread has ruined my day. I hate having to think about this tragic event; and, I'm very surprised to see it appear on THR. Like my well-know grandfather used to say after he came home from a long day at City Hall; 'Mother, don't ever let any of the children go into politics.'

(None of us did!)
 
It was a blued Smith& Wesson model 19 with a 6in barrel. One of the guys I worked with was in the room at the time of the shot. The Smith was Bud's personal weapon as I understood it at the time. The round was a 158 lead semi wadcutter in. 357. Thanks for the memory.

I was treated to reruns of the tape several times. The Officer that was there ID the gun at the time and he is a gun guy so I believed him.
 
A leader of my church has said that no one that commits suicide is in their right mind and therefor should not be judged as though they were like me and you.

That's kind of a culture-specific thing IMO. Look at Eastern cultures; the Japanese, to this day, have a very different outlook on killing yourself.

Suicide - can it be rational? Does this depend on your culture? I would say that is up to the individual to decide. I would gladly do what I could to help someone who felt suicidal, but I suppose I agree with your pastor to some extent and the Japanese to some extent. Someone once called it the freedom to decide how you end your life, which also makes sense to me.

Byron Quick wrote:
Curiosity into terminal ballistics, forensic effects, psychological background, autopsy findings, legal circumstances, etc. are signs of scientific curiosity which is quite a different thing than gawking at deaths and injuries.

There is a definite line, but it can sometimes be elusive...Gavin de Becker ("anti" jerk though he may be) makes a pretty durn convincing argument that almost ALL gawking is a way of gathering info to prevent the same thing from happening to ourselves. Can you really draw the line conclusively?

I draw it at marketed "gore" and trivialization of death/tragedy. Staring at something gruesome, or being "drawn" to it, are not always bad in my book.
 
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