Project "Grip". Study in regards to firearm violence/suicide. Your input please.

[George P]

If you want it to go in the proper direction then stop them from associating guns and suicides. As has already been stated, suicide is a mental health issue and until the causes are determined, reducing their instances cannot happen. You need to know the "why" before you address the "how".
As to homicides, again, this is a societal issue. With DAs and other groups no longer putting folks in prison because it costs too much, criminals have nothing to lose and everything to gain by killing each other or the victims so they cannot be a witness. Until society determines they again want to get tough on crime, murder by any means will be a reality. More folks are killed by blunt objects and blunt force trauma than guns, so there is the other direction this study needs to go.

 

[Tinman357]

As much as I am dedicated to helping suicidal young people, I feel my efforts are better spent in early intervention by getting them the help they need
rather than focusing on the methods. I'm bowing out of this conversation now.
I'll close with this. If you want to stop suicidal people. Help them not want to.

 

[Pudge]

Ralph, homicides are not straightforward. On a death certificate you must indicate the manner of death and can choose from: natural, accidental, suicide, homicide, pending investigation, or could not be determined. If someone is killed with a firearm, the cause is gunshot wound, and the manner is homicide. There is no differentiation between a murder or a justified homicide. If we reduce overall gun-related homicides by eliminating all justified self-defense shootings, it would look good to the study, but it would be difficult to argue that societal safety improved. I mean we can easily eliminate questionable law-enforcement shootings by eliminating all law-enforcement access to firearms. And justified fatal law-enforcement shootings are all gun related homicides when you look at the statistics.

The focus needs to be on reducing violent crime. Look at the Texas church shooting. When the murderer was killed by a parishioner, that was one of those gun related homicides the study wants to eliminate, but the reality is that we cannot quantify how many homicides were prevented by that fatal shooting. The statistics need to be refined in such a way that society's risk is illustrated, and the actual benefits of a policy can be measured.

 

[Archie]

The idea of 'gun control' suppressing homicide is futile from the start. Criminal homicide is generated by human intent, not by availability of instrumentality.

It is the same as pretending the presence of a firearm will cause a perfectly well balanced and happy, cheerful person to commit suicide.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

[QUOTE="Pudge, post: 11788228, member: 186511" ] If we reduce overall gun-related homicides by eliminating all justified self-defense shootings, it would look good to the study, but it would be difficult to argue that societal safety improved. [/QUOTE]
If someone invades my home with the intention of killing or harming my family, and I kill the SOB. it would be difficult to argue that societal safety was NOT improved.

 

[JN01]

The data does not suggest that someone will find a way to kill themselves no matter what. Approximately 90% of people who attempt suicide and survive, AND THEN get the right mental health help, do not end up killing themselves. The "AND THEN get the right mental health help" is a huge problem, in that access to good mental health services is so difficult given provider availability, insurance issues, etc.

Of that 90%, how many made a half-hearted attempt that was unlikely to be successful as a cry for help or attention, rather than a serious try at ending their life?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That's a point I made before. If we control for intent -- on the one hand those determined to kill themselves, and on the other those making a cry for help, we will find precious few of the latter use a firearm. The man who shoots himself intends to die, and you won't stop him by depriving him of a gun. Look at all the people who committed suicide before guns were invented. Look at the suicide rate in Japan which has total gun control.

 

[Ralph III]

If you want it to go in the proper direction then stop them from associating guns and suicides. As has already been stated, suicide is a mental health issue and until the causes are determined, reducing their instances cannot happen. You need to know the "why" before you address the "how".
As to homicides, again, this is a societal issue. With DAs and other groups no longer putting folks in prison because it costs too much, criminals have nothing to lose and everything to gain by killing each other or the victims so they cannot be a witness. Until society determines they again want to get tough on crime, murder by any means will be a reality. More folks are killed by blunt objects and blunt force trauma than guns, so there is the other direction this study needs to go.

George that is exactly what I desire. I've never met these professors and they are still in the beginning stages. I am just trying to prepare myself so that I can contribute in some meaningful fashion.

I'm not one to just sit by and accept what others say. So when points are brought up in these meetings by possible anit-gun folks, I want to be prepared to defend gun owners rights and to steer the conversation in the proper direction.

I can be very effective in doing this if I am prepared. So that is why I am here. I am trying to get prepared.

1. Yes, I am going to be animate in stating that simply associating suicide with firearms is wrong. I will press them to recognize this as PART OF THE PROBLEM and where other studies have failed. It is truly detrimental to the stated goal because it is simply a distraction from what really needs to occur. We need to focus on people. We need to educate parents and other people on how to recognize depression or other potential disasters. Such as a veteran who doesn't have a support base and is isolated or a teenager who may not be suicidal but who may suffer from emotional and impulsive mood swings.

2. In regards to criminal homicide. FBI stats show that most people are actually killed with a firearm and not a blunt instrument. So I am not sure where you are getting that from? You can go HERE for the link I found.

"Handguns comprised 64.3 percent of the firearms used in murder and nonnegligent manslaughter incidents in 2018".

If I am reading the language correctly, that number does not include justifiable homicides. The FBI keeps those in a separate category because it recognizes that LE and citizens will stop criminals in an act of crime and such is justifiable.

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One major thing that I have not mentioned and I consider it very important and one reason we are where we are. Our society has turned away from God and our Christian values otherwise morality in general. We live in a society that in general no longer truly values life or family or morals. So as long as our society continues down this road then these issues will only continue to grow, IMHO. Look at the number of homes with no fathers or parents who take absolutely no interest in their children. I bet I know at least half a dozen grandparents raising their grandchildren because the parents can't get off drugs. Many of these are from good families. So we have gotten away from what once was great values of America.

Take care,
Ralph

 

[Vern Humphrey]

One major thing that I have not mentioned and I consider it very important and one reason we are where we are. Our society has turned away from God and our Christian values otherwise morality in general. We live in a society that in general no longer truly values life or family or morals. So as long as our society continues down this road then these issues will only continue to grow, IMHO. Look at the number of homes with no fathers or parents who take absolutely no interest in their children. I bet I know at least half a dozen grandparents raising their grandchildren because the parents can't get off drugs. Many of these are from good families. So we have gotten away from what once was great values of America.

Take care,
Ralph

I think I mentioned earlier that 51% of counties in the US have 0 homicides. And 5% have over 68% of the homicides. And the difference between the 51% and the 5% us CULTURE. It is the 5% that no longer values life, family or morals. Figure a way to change that and you will reduce the homicide rate by 2/3s.

 

[stillquietvoice]

would truly appreciate your input in regards to gun violence, accidents and suicides.

Violence is violence, a gun is not, by itself violent. It's an object like a coffee mug or a brake rotor, or any other object, could be used as a weapon of violence.

Accidents do happen on occasion wether by "forgetting, overlooking rules of firearms saftey or by mechanical failure. Education, reminders of saftey can help prevent some of them.

Recognizing and helping people in depression should be the greatest goal as it is a solution. Anyhow, your thoughts are most helpful here.

And for those who aren't displaying symptoms we can create a group of mind readers to walk around every town, city... and stop at every home that a person is contemplating suicide, then turn them in for their own good.

The CDC is the agency which collects such data and the

The CDC collects, invents, collaborates the data to "prove" that guns are a public health hazard and "need" to be removed from society to cure the imagined disease.

I see commercials everyday pushing drugs that ate support to help depression, but list as side effects suicidal thoughts. Medications that doctors prescribe to patients then wonder why the suicide rate is so high.

 

[stillquietvoice]

No amount of new legislation is going to reduce violent crimes using firearms or other means, as long as those laws are targeted at the general public. Any more than the 22 thousand current laws have.

A question that entersy mind is how can we reduce crime, Victims of crime? Well we could adopt a policy that all people after highschool graduation be entered into the military. That would teach self defense techniques, with and without guns, as well as the fact that our freedom isn't free, we as a country have paid for it in blood, safe gun handling practices, and reduce fear of armed citizens. Is this policy unrealistic, perhaps it is, but is is a solution.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

No amount of new legislation is going to reduce violent crimes using firearms or other means, as long as those laws are targeted at the general public. Any more than the 22 thousand current laws have.

A question that entersy mind is how can we reduce crime, Victims of crime? Well we could adopt a policy that all people after highschool graduation be entered into the military. That would teach self defense techniques, with and without guns, as well as the fact that our freedom isn't free, we as a country have paid for it in blood, safe gun handling practices, and reduce fear of armed citizens. Is this policy unrealistic, perhaps it is, but is is a solution.

The problem is, how would we pay for that? There are over 20 million people in the lower end of the military age bracket. What will it cost to feed, house, clothe, equip and train them?

And what will we DO with all that manpower?

 

[Ralph III]

Ralph III, since suicide seems to be the main focus of a LOT of the posts so far, and I don't (luckily) have much experience in that area, I'll touch on accidental shootings. I've taught Hunter Education for over 26 years and we ALWAYS go over hunting accident statistics in our classes (an important part of the curriculum). Most states track these stats and have them available to the public. They show a huge drop in hunting accidents after Hunter Education programs became a prerequisite for obtaining a hunting license. I'm NOT advocating for mandatory education as a prerequisite for gun ownership. I'm just pointing out that there are statistics available that clearly show a decline in accidental shootings (specific to hunting, obviously) as a result of education. Just another "arrow" in your quiver of ways to reduce accidental shootings.

BTW, to those who've already posted their decisions to demystify the curiosity of children with regards to firearms, I totally agree. It has worked in my small corner of the world.

Thanks Doug! I am the one who advocated removing curiosity with children about firearms because that is what I did with both of my daughters when they were very young. My experience is mostly with the sport of shooting (hunting/plinking) over 50 years. I do conceal carry in order to protect my family and I help with Church security as well. I have always been very conscious of gun safety because it was driven into us by our fathers when very young (early 70's). In all of these years I've witnessed many people fail to abide by certain rules (mostly where the gun is pointing) so I advocate safety any chance I get.

We didn't have the education programs that are available today, so it's great that is going on. Do you have a link where I may go that shows accidental shootings have fallen over the years?

It would be great if new shooters could be required to take a gun safety course if ran by the gun community and not some government agency. I'm sure the government would still find a way to use it as a gun control measure though. Just like some states use concealed carry permits as a gun control method by making it very difficult to get one. So education and encouraging new shooters to take a course is best.

I really wish the NRA could sponsor some free clinics to bring awareness to gun safety and ownership. I think this could encourage people to get involved with the shooting sports and reduce accidental shootings even further. I think this would also go a long way in removing the negative connotations the liberals attempt to associate with gun ownership. I am going to be contacting the NRA in regards and I will be suggesting this for the study. Wouldn't it be fantastic if the NRA and the CDC both could get on board for something like this?

Take care,
Ralph

 

[buck460XVR]

A question that entersy mind is how can we reduce crime, Victims of crime?

Reduce crime and you will reduce the amount of victims of crime. We don't need any more laws, we just need to enforce the ones we have and make the punishment equal to the crime and equal across the board. No more free passes to perpetrators when they commit multiple acts. I'm a firm believer in the Three Strike rule. I also am a firm believer that we need to find a way to rehabilitate criminals successfully and a way to safely assimilate them back into society as contributing members of society. This is where we are failing. Incarceration in itself does not rehabilitate...it only angers and hardens criminals. Then we send them back into society with no more skills than they started with...kinda why they ended up incarcerated in the first place. Firearms are a easy source of power and authority to them, one can understand why they gravitate to them. But criminals will always have a source for them, regardless of how much we restrict and regulate them from law abiding citizens.

 

[Ralph III]

No amount of new legislation is going to reduce violent crimes using firearms or other means, as long as those laws are targeted at the general public. Any more than the 22 thousand current laws have.

A question that entersy mind is how can we reduce crime, Victims of crime? Well we could adopt a policy that all people after highschool graduation be entered into the military. That would teach self defense techniques, with and without guns, as well as the fact that our freedom isn't free, we as a country have paid for it in blood, safe gun handling practices, and reduce fear of armed citizens. Is this policy unrealistic, perhaps it is, but is is a solution.

Wow, that mimics some of the sentiment of my father and his best friend who was/is like a second father to me. They pointed out that Israel requires everyone to join the military, as I recall. They felt this would go a long way in understanding what it means to serve this nation and in regards to patriotism. This would also accomplish the other goals you mentioned. That will never happen though.

Take care,
Ralph

 

[George P]

The problem is, how would we pay for that? There are over 20 million people in the lower end of the military age bracket. What will it cost to feed, house, clothe, equip and train them?

And what will we DO with all that manpower?

How much are they costing us now either unemployed or incarcerated; at least in the military we could put them on our border

 

[stillquietvoice]

Wow, that mimics some of the sentiment of my father and his best friend who was/is like a second father to me. They pointed out that Israel requires everyone to join the military, as I recall. They felt this would go a long way in understanding what it means to serve this nation and in regards to patriotism. This would also accomplish the other goals you mentioned. That will never happen though.

Take care,
Ralph

You are likely correct, in that it won't happen, Isreal had no choice to protect their borders and newly established nation.

 

[stillquietvoice]

The problem is, how would we pay for that? There are over 20 million people in the lower end of the military age bracket. What will it cost to feed, house, clothe, equip and train them?

And what will we DO with all that manpower?

These are all problems to that particular system, logistics. As to what we could do with them, we as a country have thousands ofiles of boarders yo patrol, cities with extremely high crime rates. Patrol the streets in highest crime areas to reduce it.

 

[Ralph III]

The idea of 'gun control' suppressing homicide is futile from the start. Criminal homicide is generated by human intent, not by availability of instrumentality.

It is the same as pretending the presence of a firearm will cause a perfectly well balanced and happy, cheerful person to commit suicide.

Nobody has said anything about gun control. Where did you get that from as you have quotes around it?

That is in fact one of the stated missions of the study. They acknowledge that other studies and consequently recommendations have been essentially fruitless and noted that the national conversation simply revolved around "access to guns". So essentially gun control of some sort. They are desiring to work with gun owners so we may come up with legitimate methods to curtail some of these deaths through suicide and homicide. They are working with gun owners so we can devise methods which also do not infringe upon our 2nd Amendment rights.

God Bless,
Ralph

 

[Ralph III]

Hello Everyone,
I just wanted to thank everyone for their input!

The purpose of this initial thread by me was simply in getting your opinions! I wanted to see if my opinions were in line with yours and they essentially are. I just want to be sure I in part represent the firearm community properly.

I did raise some of the concerns voiced on this forum to the professors in charge of the study. Their goal is simply to work with gun owners in attempting to come up with some legitimate strategies in reducing homicides and suicides or accidental shootings. Your voice was heard clearly. It should not simply be about the firearms and I will make this point.

Dr. Mehari confirmed there is no bias whatsoever against firearms. "The project definitely does not have an anti-gun stance...". She in fact confirmed numerous of the professors and co-investigators own and shoot guns. She "enjoys shooting" but only considers herself a "novice" in comparison to most gun owners. She stated that one of her co-investigators would "definitely categorize himself as a gun enthusiast". We live in the deep south after all...

Anyhow because of the concerns you raised and as I voiced, Dr. Mehari stated that the fear of gun bias was obviously a great concern. "It sounds like this might be an important conversation to have with the whole Gun Owners Advisory Board." So these concerns will be discussed at our first meeting. She also confirmed the Gun Owner and Community Advisory boards would be guiding the direction of the study. "Yes! We will be relying heavily on our advisory boards to guide the research."

Anyhow, I've got all I need for now but I may be posting some specific questions in the future. I appreciate your helping me with this and for your future input.

Thank you,
Ralph

 

[Ralph III]

I just wanted to give an update as we had our first meeting at an indoor gun range, btw.

Immediately I want to say, there is most assuredly no bias against firearms in regards to this study. I met Dr. Krista Mehari and Dr. Phillip Smith and I'd consider both of them to be firearm enthusiasts and strong 2nd Amendment supporters. That can also be said of the other researchers who are assisting them as well. This study means a lot to them personally as gun owners as well. Because like all of us, they feel there is and has been a lot of bias against firearms so they want to in part correct that. In fact, they shared a few stories of the push back that they get at times from some fellow colleagues. That is why they feel this is important because it can in part dismiss some of the negative connotations often levied against firearm ownership.

There was probably between 30 and 40 of us on the Gun Owners Advisory board with a large diversity in backgrounds. The owner of the indoor range is a retired LE officer. There were numerous other LE officers involved as well as one gentleman who works with the military in counter terrorism. There were numerous NRA instructors and several gun shop owners. Most of us were men but there was some ladies. There were other backgrounds and a great diversity in age groups. There was also one Game Warden (late 20's) who works with a lot of educational programs. They sponsor several programs including the Adult Mentored Hunting Program which I think is a phenomenal endeavor. They get seasoned and experienced hunters/shooters to help mentor anyone interested in hunting as well as the outdoors in general. They provide a lot of safety and shooting instruction and programs for youth, all of which is free. I think most of us grew up hunting but a few got involved with firearms out of necessity as they felt the need to protect themselves otherwise involved with LE or Military. We were broken off into two different groups, due to size, so I am not sure of the diversity in the second group.

Krista led our group and she was a blast. She was really excited about all of the input and the opinions being shared that she could hardly contain herself by the end. She is fairly young (mid/late 20's). So she was just amazed at all of the stories people shared and their reasons for enthusiasm for firearms. I've always admired the beauty and craftsmanship myself and noted some of the iconic firearms, such as the 1911, the Walther PPK, the Beretta 92FS, and the Colt Python, which I consider the most beautiful revolver ever made, etc. She shared that was her first reaction with the first firearm she purchased, just the beauty of it.

I am fairly outspoken so I did actually speak quite a bit. One thing I did was bring up some of the concerns that was raised here. A few others stated the same but their fears, like mine, had already been put to rest. I also shared the death of Tinman357's daughter and gave his opinion in regards to suicide, as I promised I would, noting the failures of the system to help. I noted the point that suicide rates could be skewed because people who choose to take their life with a firearm may have done so BECAUSE they knew it was lethal. Whereas others who chose different methods and survived, may have not truly been suicidal but instead making a call for help. Numerous other points as well.

It's kinda funny because at one point I used the term "firearm violence" and the Game Warden who sat at my table said "well, that is not the language we would use" as law abiding gun owners. Just like some of you did when I posted here, so I mentioned that. In my defense, I noted that when I say firearm violence I mean, "violence committed by a criminal with use of a firearm". Several LE officers and a few others who came from bad neighborhoods came to my defense and agreed with my terminology. They feel part of the problem with the language we use -vs- now is due to our era or different backgrounds. We all agreed that we need to be very careful with our language though as we go forward and begin to conduct studies/surveys. It's just something I would have never thought about though because I mostly associate firearms with sports as the Game Warden see it. Whereas when I say firearm violence I am speaking about a small percentage and in regards to criminals. This is how the LE saw it as well.

Anyhow, it was an excellent first meeting.

God Bless,
Ralph

 

[Ignition Override]

Mental illness funding-
We read often about how so many states shutdown institutions many years ago. I have no idea what the statistics are. Not too far east of us, the old brick buildings at a state facility in Bolivar TN seem to be mostly deserted.

An older friend of ours frequently drove to the Capital in Nashville - on his own time - to lobby for more funding in TN. This elderly guy had once suffered from serious depression and after many years finally learned that it was linked to gluten (true- not simply to be 'hip').
We were never told whether he believed that such lobby groups have made any significant difference.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Mental illness funding-
We read often about how so many states shutdown institutions many years ago. I have no idea what the statistics are. Not too far east of us, the old brick buildings at a state facility in Bolivar TN seem to be mostly deserted.

An older friend of ours frequently drove to the Capital in Nashville - on his own time - to lobby for more funding in TN. This elderly guy had once suffered from serious depression and after many years finally learned that it was linked to gluten.
We were never told whether he believed that such lobby groups have made any significant difference.

If you have studied what those facilities were like when they were open, you'd not support re-opening them. The key to dealing with mental heath is to provide more treatment on the same basis as other diseases, not to lock people up, dope them up, and dehumanize them.

 

[Ignition Override]

Vern:
I knew nothing about them. Zero. Had no idea that they were so bad.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern:
I knew nothing about them. Zero. Had no idea that they were so bad.

Imagine you have an enemy who wants to get rid of you legally -- you can be committed for an indefinite term, with no right to a defense and no right of appeal. Once committed, you can be drugged against your will ("for your own good") with drugs that will leave you permanently mentally impaired. You might look up "The Titticutt Follies." or "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."