Project "Grip". Study in regards to firearm violence/suicide. Your input please.

[Ralph III]

Thanks for the input guys!

Just to correct one point Zahn, the study does not use the words "gun violence" anywhere and most assuredly not in it's title! I think I corrected that notion once before so put it to rest. Secondly, and as noted, the Researchers are without a doubt gun enthusiasts and 2nd Amendment supporters. It's a few of the gun owners on the Advisory Board that I am disappointed in. It's obvious to me these few are not 2nd Amendment supporters and simply desire to affect the study as you folks point out. This is the concern I brought to the attention of the Researchers.

The email response I received from them was spot on. They fully understood my points and agree with the concerns I raised. They acknowledged one of the "biggest challenges" was with the formation of the Advisory Board. They recognize that "some voices are not going to be the most representative" but that they are very "mindful of this". The Doctor and lead Researcher went on to say "Indeed, your email is part of us weighing where the group is versus where each individual voice in the group may be. So I certainly welcome your emails and input.".

I've been very involved and outspoken and as such they consider mine to be a "critical voice in the group". So that was nice to know. In my 55 years, I've just never been around gun owners who were not also gun enthusiasts so I was naive to what occurred. You read about it and you see it on TV all the time but it's another thing to actually experience Liberal idiocy. That is what I experienced at the last meeting with the two gun owners.

God Bless,
Ralph

 

[mnrivrat]

I attended the U of MO after Vietnam on the GI Bill - my major was AOJ. The OP’s review reads almost exactly like one of my classes from the latter ‘70’s - reads like nothing has changed in that discipline from almost 50 years ago.
Since my college days, shootings have skyrocketed (especially in certain behavioral groups) - I wake up to more shooting news every day in St. Louis - they take a body count and then they move onto the weather report - no one cares anymore. I think that you could sentence these people to a million years In prison and the triggers will still get pulled.
Suicide is a staple of human nature - for some people, this planet will never be right. Just like auto fatalities and shootings, suicide is just another daily blip on the news.
Shootings, suicides, auto fatalities, natural disasters, home fires, COVID deaths, etc - all just news blips only until one of those events hits close to home - then suddenly that stuff becomes real.
Firearms were created and refined for one reason - ever efficient killing. I do agree that the only way to eliminate violence with firearms is to remove firearms availability - the human behavior that perpetrates the violence is never going to change. Humans are violent by nature, that is why men must be governed. The only reason that many more people are not killed every day is simply because our laws say that there is a price to be paid.
I do wish the OP great success with the study venture.

Sorry, but I'm not buying into all of this. Humans violent by nature , that is why men must be governed. If that were true we would never have any sense of peace or community. Being violent is not a natural trait, and being governed as a necessity may fit into your world, but it does not define mine. To those who are violent, no law will stop them, nor will they be controlled by either law or penalty. The man that put two bullets in the back of my family members head, had no sense of it being against the law. He simply wanted something that he felt he could obtain by killing him. He gave no consideration to law , or penalty. Is he a normal violent human being ? I don't think so.
As far as removing firearms as a way to stop their use as a tool of violence, that cat has been out of its bag for century's . Your not going to succeed in stuffing it back in, any more than you are going to get red of bathtubs, where more children loose their lives by drowning than are killed by firearms according to the last data I have seen. Perhaps people should look at what other methods of death come into play in our world before banishing inanimate objects thinking that the answer to a problem that exists on a minor scale to so many others. Gun control is not about crime, or suicide when put into perspective. The benefits of this tool for self defense , and other uses far excide their abuse.
By the way, the man who killed my family member has sat on death row for around 25 years now. His Blog says he has it pretty good as he gets his three meals each day and doesn't have to do dishes. He apparently gets use of a computer, and the present administration is giving him a $1,400 check to spend. Some penalty he pays for his violence. He is nothing but a cash cow for lawyers who represent him through endless appeals on BS technicalities. But, after all he is human and did what comes naturally.

 

[pairof44sp]

Hello Everyone.

The University of South Alabama has received a 1.8 million dollar grant to study the effects of gun injuries (homicides/suicides) and is working closely with gun owners in coming up with strategies to curtail such. So this is an opportunity for you to have some input in regards.


The study is called GRIP (Gun-Related Injury Prevention) and can be found HERE. My wife is employed at USA in one of the relevant departments so she brought this to my attention early. I have been in contact with Dr. Mehari and Dr. Smith and I am going to serve on the Gun Owners Advisory board. My correspondence with them has been very enthusiastic and excellent, btw. They are still in the process of assembling the team but we hope to have our first meeting within two weeks.

Anyhow, I would truly appreciate your input in regards to gun violence, accidents and suicides. Your opinions are valued and I will be sharing them where applicable. I would especially appreciate it if you could help me gather some verifiable stats; otherwise point me in the right direction.

In giving a little bit of my background. I've been involved with hunting and shooting for nearly 50 years now. Just like you, I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment, for both recreation and self defense purposes. I also think the shooting sports and outdoors is a fantastic hobby for families and the youth to be involved with.

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I will give a brief summary of my stance on homicides and suicides in regards to firearms. I'm hoping to expand upon this by hearing your opinions and in getting even greater insight. This is a general summary. I may be asking specific questions once we begin the process.

1. Reducing gun related homicides:

a) Additional penalties associated with crimes in which a weapon was used: I think this would
deter the common criminal from utilizing a weapon which in turn could help reduce homicides
and shooting in general. The additional and severe penalties would also insure hardened
criminals are incarcerated longer which keeps them off the streets.

b) Legal gun owners: I believe legal gun owners act to deter crimes and stop crimes with the use
of their firearms and in significant numbers. One prominent study on this was conducted under
the Obama Admin. Despite their anti-gun stance their findings are quite telling. This is from pg
26 as found HERE.



It should be noted that the National Crime and Victimization study was obviously an anti-gun and consequently bogus study. It only noted "108,000 annual defensive uses" but their study did not in fact ask respondents about "defensive usage"! Otherwise, they do not include stats in which gun owners prevented a crime by telling a perpetrator that they had a weapon or by brandishing it. Some do not even count cases in which the gun owner fired but missed although such prevented a crime. Many resort to limiting their stats to instances where the gun owner actually fired their weapon and injured the perpetrator. This significantly deflates the stats of how often legal gun owners actually prevent or stop crimes with their weapons. This is obviously purposeful.

The study performed under the Obama Admin by the Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council notes the National Crime Victimization Survey discrepancy.



c) Criminal Reformation: I believe Incarceration should include Reformation of a criminal who will
be paroled at some point. This may include increasing their education to teaching them a skill
to instilling a sense of morality. I also think they should be allowed to leave and then return to
the prison in the last year of their sentence, such as with the work release program. I think a
gradual re-introduction into society would be best -vs- simply releasing a criminal back into
society upon completion of his sentence.

d) Favorable laws: Laws should be created both at the Federal and State level that affords
protections to law abiding citizens who used their firearms to prevent or stop a criminal from
killing innocent people.

e) Other security measures: People should utilize home security systems, cameras and lighting
to secure their home. They should also be aware of their surroundings and take precautionary
measures when away from their home. This could act to reduce homicides and other violent
crimes.

f) Education: Their should be educational programs and campaigns to inform people of how
they may better protect themselves. It should include an honest portrayal of the benefits of
legal gun ownership which should include proper training of course. This would also help to
remove the anti-gun sentiment and propaganda that the left promotes.

2. Reducing accidental gun injuries:

a) Education and Training: Gun safety should be taught and stressed at every opportunity to
both adults and children. I really feel the NRA and other gun organizations should put on
free clinics to the public. This would go a long way in both creating enthusiasm and in
curtailing accidental shootings. You cannot just hide guns from children, you must also
remove their curiosity!!!!

b) Safe storage: Guns should be stored safely in households with children. I'm not one to say
you must utilize a gun safe -vs- kept out of reach and hidden. That is a decision you must
make based upon your circumstances. I chose to educate my children which included
completely removing any curiosity. I then kept my pistol hidden and out of reach. My gun
safe is a bio-metric type but I would never trust it for fast access in case of a home
invasion. I do however lock my guns up when other children visit.

3. Reducing suicides with firearms:

I think about 60% of all suicides in America are committed with use of a firearm? Consequently, if you want to prevent suicides by firearms then you have to temporarily remove the firearms. That's the simple answer right. For me it is a little more complicated then that.

It seems to me a lot of studies place emphasis on removing the firearm and less emphasis on treating those suffering suicidal thoughts. I mean if you removed all of the firearms in stopping suicides by firearm, then you may have only stopped suicides by firearm and nothing more.

There are many other countries that don't allow firearms or otherwise they are highly restricted and yet they have higher rates of suicides than America. So even if you removed the firearm who is to say they wouldn't have committed suicide by other means?

A lot of stats say that most attempted suicides fail by other means whereas suicide by firearm is typically fatal. But how do we know that many of these attempted suicides were really just calls for help? Whereas those who chose truly lethal means, whether by firearm or other methods, were truly seeking to commit suicide.

But yes, if you have someone who is suicidal within your household then you must remove or lock away your firearms. I'm not sure how much of a solution this is though versus a temporary prevention? Anyhow, this is a subject which needs greater research so your input would be especially appreciated here.

Note: Many of my stats are a little bit older so if you have some pertinent stats which are a little more current, then please reference those.

Thank you and God Bless,
Ralph

A couple of comments.

The firearms enhancements that you call for in your first item are already in place, in the counties/states I have lived in.

Anecdotally, the gun enhancements DO work. For example, in Los Angeles, everyone who is “in the life” knows that it is OK to sell drugs, but it is Highly Not OK to sell drugs while armed.

Dope dealers make sure themselves are unarmed, that the customer is unarmed when he leaves with the dope, even that their soldiers and lieutenants are unarmed because they’ll rat out the Boss if they have a 10-year gun enhancement over their heads.

The same 1,500 pounds of marijuana that usually gets you probation, or 6 months max, becomes a minimum 10-year State Prison case if you had a gun in your pocket.

 

[pairof44sp]

A couple of comments.

The firearms enhancements that you call for in your first item are already in place, in the counties/states I have lived in.

Anecdotally, the gun enhancements DO work. For example, in Los Angeles, everyone who is “in the life” knows that it is OK to sell drugs, but it is Highly Not OK to sell drugs while armed.

Dope dealers make sure themselves are unarmed, that the customer is unarmed when he leaves with the dope, even that their soldiers and lieutenants are unarmed because they’ll rat out the Boss if they have a 10-year gun enhancement over their heads.

The same 1,500 pounds of marijuana that usually gets you probation, or 6 months max, becomes a minimum 10-year State Prison case if you had a gun in your pocket.

Gut-level response on suicide: sometimes people kill themselves for good reasons. Do we want these people to have to jump from freeway overpasses?

the number of people who kill themselves on a temporary whim, or because they are in a bad mood, and who would have been fine if only they had not owned a gun, cannot be a large one