Gun show loophole? Not around here...

The "loophole" is that non FFL type people can sell guns cash and carry at gun shows.

The real goal of those who wish to "close the gun show loophole" is to require ALL firearms transactions to go through an FFL.

funny thing it is but I bet the majority of tables holding used guns at the show were rented by a private individual, without a license. If the guy is selling new firearms he probably has a FFL.

In washington to purchase a gun from the show you need to be a member of the WAC which requires a backround check our you must send a copy of your CCL, either or.
SO not just anyone can buy a gun.
I think its a good setup IMO

Unless prohibited by state law, an unlicensed individual can make face-to-face sales of used guns,(not new ones) to another resident of the same state who is over 18 years of age (rifle or shotgun) or 21 (handguns) provided they are not barred from owning firearms for whatever reason.

So why don't these sellers make background checks? Because they can't. Only FFL dealers can do so.

This fact is never mentioned by either the mainstream media or gun control advovates. They want to make buying guns as difficult and regulated as possible.

If all gun sales have to go through a licensed dealer, and the dealers can charge whatever they want... well you put two and two together.

in PA, ALL pistol transfers must go through an FFL, only long guns can be sold ftf.

The anti crowd may or may not have a problem with a national close-the-loophole plan. The federal government unquestionably has the authority to regulate interstate commence. That means goods moving from one state to another. However the Constitution did not give them the specific power to regulate intrastate commerce, or the sale of personal property or goods sold within a particular state. The Constitution goes further in saying that any powers not specifically assigned to the federal government is reserved to the states, or to the people. Of course liberal judges who believe the Feds should run everything have sometimes ruled otherwise, so this could leave the question up in the air.

But it is generally conceded that regulating a sale of something that’s personal property, and the transaction is between two individuals that reside in the same state, any regulation of the matter is for the state government to decide, not the one in Washington D. C.

So for example, if you live in Michigan and go to a gun show (or anyplace else) and legally buy a handgun you have to have a “permit to purchase,” which is obtained before the sale from the police or sheriff department. Among other things getting this permit involves a background check, and the permit is required because of a state, not federal law. It has also been in place since the mid-1930’s so it’s nothing new.

In Arizona, where I live, there is no such requirement. I can go to a gun show and buy a handgun (or whatever) from a private seller, and so long as both of us reside in Arizona and I am not, for some reason prohibited from owning guns. We simply identify each other, and then I hand over the money, and he hands me the gun. Both of us have to follow the requirements of our state’s laws, but the federal government is not involved.

This of course drives the anti’s up the wall, but the fact is that there is no statistical evidence from the BATF&E or FBI that shows that a higher percentage of criminals obtain firearms from gun shows in Arizona then do so in Michigan.

Why so? Well it could be because at most if not all sizeable gun shows you will find a substantial law enforcement presence – both in and out of uniform. Thus gun shows are not a particularly criminal-friendly environment. If the so-called “loophole” is closed, private gun sellers would go elsewhere, and this kind of oversight would be impossible. Of course you’re not going to find this out in the mainstream media either.

Anti’s would like to close down gun shows for a number of reasons, not the least being that pro-gun candidates who are running for public office, or organizations such as the National Rifle Association (NRA) or Gun Owners of America (GOA) often set up tables where they can pass out literature, sign up new members or get signatures on nominating petitions, collect money, and in general push gun owner rights issues forward. On more then one occasion, support received by political candidates on our side at gun shows has been a major factor in their favor when they were subsequently elected. This business of “closing the gun show loophole,” really means “close down gun shows if we can,” and if you look closely you’ll discover that only one of the two major political parties is pushing for this, and it’s for they’re own obvious benefit.

If all gun sales have to go through a licensed dealer, and the dealers can charge whatever they want... well you put two and two together.

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And when all gun sales made by an FFL must go thru a mandatory Brady check, what happens when 'the system is down'?

The goal is to force a choke point that regulates the flow of firearms between individuals. The premise is, as usual, public safety.

As has been pointed out - sadly, there is no statistical merit to the notion (altho the recent 'Mayor's Against Illegal Guns' ag-prop tried to draw a parallel between illegal arms and lack of mandated FFL involvement).

there is nothing specifically legal at any gun show that is not legal at any other time or place.
If i want to sell my gun here in FL as a private party face to face sale i can take out an ad in the paper with my phone number, or i can tape a piece of papaer with a price to the gun and/or case while i walk around the show doing other stuff.

Yup, you are right - but I was trying to focus on private sales made at gun shows. That's why I said:

Of course liberal judges who believe the Feds should run everything have sometimes ruled otherwise, so this could leave the question up in the air.

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And didn’t go into additional details.

Undoubtedly congress and the present administration will try to work around any constitutional road bumps. Whatever might be passed will be challenged in the courts, and then we'll see what happens.

My other principal point was that this issue, like most firearms issues, has been substantially misrepresented in the mainstream media; both in what they have said, and a lot they carefully didn't mention. That's why Internet forums like this one are so important, because they’re few other ways to present an alternative argument.

Yeah i can imagine it..

"hi there, are you a dealer? Oh you are, my bad"

"hiii, are you a dealer?"

Going around the field/room asking people one after the other. THAT would be a perfect way for a criminal to get his stuff..

I remember when I went to my first gun show ever, in Albuquerque, I was expecting to see some sort of third-world arms bazaar, where they did illicit trades in machine guns and I could buy anything without a background check. Yeah, it was just over-priced stuff and everyone had an FFL.

That's what liberal rumors do... stoke up other people's fears and destroy my hopeful expectations

There is no such thing as a "Gunshow Loophole"

"Loophole" refers to a poorly written piece of legislation whereby someone has figured a legal way to skirt the intent of the law.

If it is legal in your state to sell person to person with no dealer/BGC etc. involved, it's legal period and not an attempt to skirt a law that says it is illegal for private individuals to sell to each other.

I feel we need to make sure that the term "loophole" is explained to those that don't know, the anti's came up with the term for a reason- to put it into the publics mind we are getting away with something illegal or wrong...

I have on several occasions been asked for an example of a "real" loophole, as opposed to what is not really a loophole for ftf sales. Does anybody know a good example?

Alright, ask the real question. "How many guns used in crimes have been purchased FTF at a gun show?" I'll bet the answer is almost zero. Guns used in crimes are purchased on the street or stolen.
This "loophole" is just feel-good legislation so your state representative can get re-elected.

This "loophole" is just feel-good legislation so your state representative can get re-elected.

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No, it’s a lot more then that. The anti’s ultimate goal is control, prohibition, & confiscation; but to get anything close to that, they have to know who has what. To accomplish anything they need to force what are now unregulated private sales into the FFL model with #4473 forms to provide de facto registration. They are well aware (although thanks to the mainstream media the general public isn’t) that only a federally licensed dealer can make a background check, and that first of all the firearm being sold has to be recorded in the dealer’s bound book, and then the buyer has to fill out a #4473 form. It’s that form that they really want, and the next step if they succeed, will be to demand that all private sales or transfers to be conducted in the same manner.

Unless prohibited by state law, an unlicensed individual can make face-to-face sales of used guns,(not new ones) to another resident of the same state who is over 18 years of age (rifle or shotgun) or 21 (handguns) provided they are not barred from owning firearms for whatever reason.

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Old Fuff,

In most states, including my great state of Washington and your great state of Arizona, the legal age for a FTF transaction between residents of the same state even for handguns is 18.

If They REALLY Wanted To

If they really wanted to close the "Gun Show Loophole" they could make it possible for non-FFL holders to do a background check. It could be done inexpensively and without invading anyone's privacy.

Here's how it would work. John Doe goes to buy a gun from someone - FFL holder or not. The seller sits down to at his PC, goes to a website and enters Mr. Doe's name, ssan, date of birth (2 of those 3 are on a state driver's license) and asks if the sale is righteous. The computer at the other end does a check of the databases and comes back with a confirm or deny and a transaction number along with the original data input. The seller hardcopies the result and either completes the sale or apologizes. In the latter case Doe would be free, if he desired, to enquire later - using the transaction number - as to the particulars for which the transaction was denied.

If the feds wish to audit the seller, they have the seller's particulars (at the very least the IP address of their PC) and can check up on them.

Of course a similar system would make it easy for employers to do due dilligence to keep from hiring illegals too.

No I do not expect either system to be implimented in my lifetime - or my GRANDCHILDREN'S for that matter!

Cy

In most states, including my great state of Washington and your great state of Arizona, the legal age for a FTF transaction between residents of the same state even for handguns is 18.

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Of course, and I know that. I just got in a hurry. I should have said, "age 18 or over."

All states must abide by the federal laws and use the form 4473 at point of purchase. Some states however go further and have state required forms and some don't allow private purchases and sales between private individuals.
In these states where the private purchases are allowed the media elites refer to this as a "loophole" when in fact it is just a legal act. They would like to stop private sales so as to have a record of all of our transactions. It is none of their business. They use the argument that they are trying to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals. I say, as long as I can own firearms it really doesn't matter if criminals have them. When I as a law abiding citizen can't have them the bad guys still will.

funny thing it is but I bet the majority of tables holding used guns at the show were rented by a private individual, without a license.

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You would be wrong then. I have been to more than 100 gun shows and never seen anything of the type. Nearly every single table holds used weapons and is run by a dealer. I think I have seen a total of ten tables out of all the gun shows rented out by private parties.