carrying one in the pipe question(s)

When I carry, it's usually a 1911, without one in the chamber. Whether it's a valid concern or not, I like the fact the gun is not readily fireable by someone not knowledgeable about 1911's, in the event I lost control of the weapon.

I also like the fact it is absolutely 'safe'. There is no way it can be fired accidentally.

I realize my inexperience with carrying is a factor here. But it's peace of mind. And I don't honestly think it would take me long to rack the slide, if I needed to, while walking the dogs at night (which is about the only time I carry).

I've heard that the Israeli army trains its officers and NCO's to carry with the chamber empty. I'm guessing that they don't feel safe with one in the pipe. They must train the heck out of them to get them comfortable with having to rack the weapon under pressure.

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I spent four years in the USAF and retired after working thirty years in le. While serving as an Air Policeman, I was issued a 1911 and the manual of arms required us to carry it with the chamber empty. As noted earlier in this thread, in le we were required to keep a round in the chamber or, if a revolver, it had to be fully loaded. I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction here in terms of the mission and the circumstances of the respective jobs. There is seldom a need to clear leather fast in most military assignments. Most engagements are known well in advance of the threat and will often as not be of an offensive nature.The pistol in wartime almost always plays a backup role to the rifle.
A civilian lawman, on the other hand, relies mostly on a handgun and it is usually deployed as a defensive weapon. Too, due to the nature of "cops and robbers" in a civilian context, a weapon may be required in an instant, with little time to feed an empty chamber.

I don't know how the military instructs servicemen now as to the mode of carry with the M9 pistol. It would seem that the double-action Beretta, coupled with a decocker, might lend itself to being carried with the chamber loaded. Anybody know?

None of my pistols have a manual safety. I have a Kel-Tec P32 and two Glocks. Put them in a holster and you're good to do. They don't go off by themselves. Carrying without a round in the chamber isn't a hot idea unless you have cat-like reflexes and can rack the slide very quickly.

I've heard that the Israeli army trains its officers and NCO's to carry with the chamber empty. I'm guessing that they don't feel safe with one in the pipe. They must train the heck out of them to get them comfortable with having to rack the weapon under pressure.

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Just more Internet info, but I read that the reason for this was the wide variety of handguns they could be issued. Rather than deal with the manual of arms differences between various decockers, DA vs. SA, etc. they decided that all pistols were pretty similar if you racked the slide from Condition 3 and then pulled the trigger.

I believe the other part of the story was that they did train heavily to be proficient at this. I don't remember ever reading any details of this training, only that it was intensive...

SwampWolf: Training class I went to in November had a flight of 5 security forces folks in it that I worked with. M9's were carried, round in the chamber, hammer down, on safe.

-Jenrick

And I don't honestly think it would take me long to rack the slide, if I needed to, while walking the dogs at night (which is about the only time I carry).

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I truly hope you never have to find out just how wrong you are.

Yes, it felt weird at first carring a gun with one in the chamber but over time, I became comfortable with my Walther PPK. It has a manual safety/decocker and a pretty heavy trigger pull so I have no qualms whatsoever about keeping it chambered at all times that I have it on me...



Now, an old school 1911, "locked and cocked"? Nope. Sorry. I love 1911's but I do not feel safe carrying one chambered. I have a newer Colt where I can decock it and lock the slide but I simply don't like "locked and cocked."

Yes, I know there aren't really any known instances of it being a problem but it still makes me uncomfortable.

Again, I LOVE 1911s.

Keep in mind: OK, so you are fast and think you can rack the slide quickly enough. What about misfeeds? If you have it chambered you have basically eliminated that possibility.

Carrying without a round in the chamber isn't a hot idea unless you have cat-like reflexes and can rack the slide very quickly.

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... ONE HANDED... while trying to fend off a close quarters attack. As Glenn Beck would say, "Not so much..."

I began carrying with a Glock 26. (sub compact 9mm) that obviously has no external safeties. I chose to use a Smart Carry holster as this provides the best deep concealment IMO.

I had to convince myself that the trigger lock would not be deactivated through the course of my daily activities. These included sitting at a desk while meeting with clients (with the muzzle pointing at them ) and commuting to work on my motorcycle while wearing the Smart Carry with the muzzle inches away from 6 gallons of gasoline.

The best advice I received I have taken to every other pistol and holster setup:

For the first week, carry the gun with a full mag while the chamber is empty. Also, make sure the pistol is cocked and if there is an external safety, lock it as you would if weapon were chambered. Go about your normal routine.

After that week, you should have the necessary faith to see that the trigger won't pull itself and the safety won't disengage.

I carry one of two handguns ... a DAO Kahr PM9 and a Kimber Ultra Carry II, SAO 1911 ... I carry both with a round in the chamber; no safety of course on the Kahr, the safety on and hammer back in the Kimber. There is no way I'm wasting time chambering a round; if you need your gun, you will need it NOW, not a second or two from now ... I've never been concerned about the round in the chamber ... I carry the Kahr usually in warm weather, in a pocket holster; the 1911 in a paddle holster ... keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to pull it; the odds of the gun firing itself are pretty slim ...

Hmmmmm, 62 posts and the OP hasn't made one of them since the start of this thread... I'm always a little suspicious when that happens.

LCP + my pocket holster = no worries on my part.

No reservations.

milkmaster said:

Help me out here and try to explain your thoughts and/or feelings about this when you first starting carrying regularly. Did it bother you? Does it still bother you? How did you get past it to carry comfortably and confidently. Did you receive any training that made you feel ok with it?

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I've been carrying my weapon(s) every single day for many years now, and they are always chambered. My "training" with firearms started when I was about five years old, and I've been around guns for most of my life.

I began attending more official training classes when I became a police officer, and also started ALWAYS carrying a CCW back when I took on this career a few years ago.

As someone else already mentioned in this thread, your biggest concern to address might be your chosen method of carry. I personally would never carry a loaded/chambered weapon in a pocket without it being properly secured in a holster. The key to safety with a chambered firearm (at least in my mind) is to have the weapon carried in a fashion that will prevent the trigger from being pulled under any accidental circumstances. A holster which covers the trigger guard will complete this task, and ensure that you don't crank a round off into your leg when you stand, sit, run, move, bend over, etc.

There are many holster options available these days, depending on your preferences.

I have a variety of holsters that I use when off-duty, depending on my intended applicatoin: I sometimes carry a mini-Glock in an inner-pants holster. This holster cost about $12, conceals the gun very well, isn't quite as comfortable as a belt holster, and doesn't retain the weapon quite as well if I'm wrestling around with someone (ask me how I know this). Other times I'll wear a simple leather belt holster. It provides better retention than the inner-pants holster, is a good bit more comfortable, and slightly less concealable. My final off-duty holster is a Blackhawk Serpa holster... It is a Level II holster, and provides excellent weapon retention. It is the least concealable of the three holsters, but is also the fastest to deploy, and the quickest/easiest to reholster with.

So, I'd advise you to take your gun over to a shop that carries a lot of holster choices (perhaps a local police supply store?), and see what works best for your needs! Carrying a gun chambered can be done safely, I just feel that it requires some type of holster to do so!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3nogY0widU

fast forward to 27 seconds into the video. That is an Israeli draw.

Why suspicious?

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Had the same question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3nogY0widU

fast forward to 27 seconds into the video. That is an Israeli draw.

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And if you don't practice CONSTANTLY, you will never be able to pull it off in the real world. Even if you do practice it and get it to become muscle memory, who is to say you won't freeze up for even a split second when it comes down to it?

Nothing wrong with carrying hot and remember that "An unloaded gun makes a great paperweight"

TRAINING, is how you react when the SHTF, no formal training your screwed.
LEO's carry autos with a round chambered, and safety's, not allowed. I think we are now at the point when a training program should be required; I have been in Law Enforcement since 1964 along with military time. Look at some of the discussions we now have, most are first time buyers with no knowledge of Design, construction and use. And they want CCW or Open Carry this is scary, Not a good idea, Law Enforcement Officers not in uniform are ALWAYS trained not to display their weapon. When someone does the open carry, is he a LEO, CCW or a nut case, there are no magic light blubs, all you need is for someone to yell GUN and the **** will hits the fan, screaming CCW or permit will not work at all TRAINING. In the state of Maryland if you want to drive, go boating on the Chesapeake Bay, drive a commerical vehicle, or go hunting with a firearm you need to attend training, a first time purchase of a firearm all you need is to watch a video.
cliff

And if you don't practice CONSTANTLY, you will never be able to pull it off in the real world. Even if you do practice it and get it to become muscle memory, who is to say you won't freeze up for even a split second when it comes down to it?

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Just saying there are options. And if you do make it muscle memory, and still freeze up - then does it really matter if you have a firearm or not? A freeze is a freeze. Some options are better than no options, although certain options are better than some options.

Wow, Cliff11, not bad for your second post, you've probably managed to alienate at least three quarters of the folks here.

There are a lot of ways to get training besides taking some state sanctioned, politically correct training course from a state sanctioned politically correct instructor who gets to spend his time feeling good about himself because "he's the only one in the room qualified to handle a loaded firearm".

(I'm sure someone will be along shortly with a link to that video of that LEO who made that asinine statement in a room full of people just seconds before shooting himself in the leg with a pistol. The idiot, was lucky he only shot himself and not an innocent bystander.)

I've had LEO, and military training as well, and none of it was any better at teaching me normal firearm safety and handling procedures than I learned from my father and older brothers by the time I was six.

Public education is a wonderful thing. Anyone else remember when the NRA safety course was offered to kids at most after school programs from YMCA to Boy Scouts, and even the Boy's Club. Doesn't happen now and we're worried about newbies shooting themselves or bystanders, hmmm.

By the way, there's a good reason I never moved back to Maryland after I got out of the military.

There are a lot of ways to get training besides taking some state sanctioned, politically correct training course from a state sanctioned politically correct instructor who gets to spend his time feeling good about himself because "he's the only one in the room qualified to handle a loaded firearm".

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AMEN! Sato Ord is exactly right. The Second Amendment does not require training wheels.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked,"

Amen Sato Ord.

Yes, there are many new firearm owners. Some do not know beans about there new gun. They may read the manual. They may take a class. They may have a good friend or relative to guide there way with SAFETY and respect taught. It is individuals like us that must take the lead and help these new owners when we see them at the range or at a store looking at firearms, they are the future. Being in Law Enforcement makes no impression on me what soever as one of my instructors put it when he started training Law Enforcement he had never had so many guns pointed at him. The average once a year qualification for LEO's is of little comfort either, after the initial new hire training unless in SWAT there is no more training. The CCW permit holders that I am around practice and often. Also competing in IDPA and other events.
Why do I occasionally carry open?
Because I am exercising my Second Amendment Rights.
Exercise your right or lose them.

The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the "Condition" system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. They are:
Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

Condition One is the only one for me, there is no rationalization to carry any other way exception being your employers policies. when carrying a 1911.
Remember there are NO Accidental Discharges only Negligent Discharges.
Your finger is the best SAFETY device.

Have relatives in Maryland now I know why I never visited them.

There are a lot of ways to get training besides taking some state sanctioned, politically correct training course from a state sanctioned politically correct instructor who gets to spend his time feeling good about himself because "he's the only one in the room qualified to handle a loaded firearm".

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I wonder if this guys name is "Cliff"....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_91jcFTbLE8