Non 1911 38 Super

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Tropical Buzz

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St. Lucia, West Indies
I have decided to buy a pistol in .38 Super for combination range/target shooting and home/personal defense. As some of you may know, we are restricted down here to "non military" handgun calibers and the Super - largely unknown here - is a desirable alternative to the commonly carried .380 that most people have licenses for.

Once I verified that I would in fact be able to import a super, I started researching the alternatives, 99% of which are 1911 based offerings from various manufacturers. I have to admit that I have a sentimental love for the 1911's, their slim cross section and the way they feel and shoot, but I have never thought seriously about owning one, mainly due to years of reading about their reliability issues and need for all sorts of tuning, tweaking and breaking in before they will function reliably with anything other than ball ammunition. I know that they are not by any means all that way, but it seems to be a bit of a crap shoot whether one ends up with a sweetheart or a lemon.

Living in the US, you can simply UPS a troublesome gun back to the manufacturer or take it to a 1911 expert for tweaking, but here in the Caribbean, the cost and bureaucracy involved in shipping firearms in and out makes that a daunting prospect.

The foremost gun expert down here recommended that I buy an STI Trojan, but more internet research indicates that while they are great range guns, the fact that they are match-grade tight makes them unsuited for reliable duty using defensive - read hollow point - ammunition.

I like the look of Kimbers, but there is as much damnation for them as there is praise. Aside from their faithful supporters, almost all the manufacturers seem to have a number of owners reporting reliability problems, whether it is an extractor issue, a feed ramp issue or some problem caused by the magazine or the ammo itself.

Questions:

1.
That leaves me looking at the two non-1911 based 38 Super alternatives out there; the EAA Witness and the Taurus PT-38S. Any personal or reliable anecdotal experience with these two platforms, either in .38 super or other calibers? How good/bad are they for my intended use?

2. I would love to be wrong about the 1911 - would any of you choose one if you lived in a place where you had no ready access to servicing and repair?

3. I see that Taurus has finally started selling the PT 1911 in .38 super. I must say that I read more positive owner reports about the Taurus than negative. Should I consider that option as a less painful (cost wise) option if it does turn out to be problematic?

I have to add for reference that my Glock 25 is as reliable as a hammer and after thousands of rounds, I don't even think about whether it will work or not when it clears the holster. I don't passionately like the looks or care for the caliber, but I do appreciate the way it functions.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.:)
 
I have no experience with any of the named guns... and do not much want it.

I like my 1911s and depend on them... but I have a gunsmith and catalogs full of parts.

If you could find and import an out-of-production gun, a Sig-Sauer P220 or the Browning BDA made for them by Sig-Sauer would be a very fine .38 Super.
 
"2. I would love to be wrong about the 1911 - would any of you choose one if you lived in a place where you had no ready access to servicing and repair?"

Yes, I'd still choose a 1911.

I don't have experience with 38 super.

My reasons? Should I have any problems with a 1911, there are many aftermarket parts readily available and common knowledge via the internet to totally dissasemble and reassemble the pistol yourself...if you really had too.

I own colts and have owned springfields - didn't have a problem with either.
 
Check out the EAA Witness Elite Match --- for under $600 it is the most accurate 38 Super I have ever owned.

I have custom 38Supers with Bar-Sto , Wilson and Clark barrels handfitted -- the Elite MAtch will group with them all and it is factory stock.
And the Witness Elite Match HOLDS 18 rounds !!!!

http://eaacorp.com/handguns-witness-...scription.html

Gunfighter, I think I like the look of that. Have you run any of the defensive HP rounds through it (Corbon, Silvertip)?
I will research, but is cc holster selection an issue?

If you consider a 1911 type, here is one place:

www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/38Super.asp

Thanks Jim, I have looked at the Colt and I like it even with the polished finish. Somehow, a bit of bling that would not normally work on another gun seems ok on a 1911 in .38 Super, Lol! That's basically a mil-spec gun, though, and I wonder if HP ammo would be a problem and also if the rear sight would be a snagging problem when cc'ing?
What do you think about the Colt Special Combat Gov't?

Thanks Leaky Waders and tbtrout.
 
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I think there was a recent thread where someone posted a photo of a Sig P220 in 38 Super -- that would be a nice one to track down, though I think that model and caliber combination has been out of production for a long time.

Of the two models under consideration, I'd lean towards the CZ-75 based EAA (Tanfoglio, really -- EAA is just the importer) option as well. Does Taurus' lifetime warranty apply down in St Lucia? If so, that might be an argument in their favor -- though I suppose you run into that shipping issue again, unless they've got a corporate office on the island.
 
Given you situation, what I would do is buy a late model Colt in .38 Super through a dealer, and have him/her function test it for you before exporting it. I would not worry about the reliability of a late model Colt. You may want to also pick some brains at the 1911forum.com, as there are quite a few .38 fans and long-time users there. There is also a sticky about the issue of the headspace issue on the barrels (there was a major production change about 1973 or so - don't quote me).
 
Witness Elite match

I spent the better part of last night looking up everything I could find on the EAA Witness Elite Match and I have to say the findings were overwhelmingly positive.
Seems like the logical way to go, but I just can't shake the feeling that my decision is kinda like choosing the less exciting but safe and virtuous girl next door over the hot, sexy babe from outta town that really raises my heartbeat. :banghead:
 
my decision is kinda like choosing the less exciting but safe and virtuous girl next door over the hot, sexy babe from outta town that really raises my heartbeat.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Answer: Colt. She'll keep you warm at night as well as make you have no regrets.
 
2. I would love to be wrong about the 1911 - would any of you choose one if you lived in a place where you had no ready access to servicing and repair?
The nice thing about M1911s is that they're pretty simple, and parts are available in hyper-abundance. With Kuehnhausen's book, you can pretty much fix anything that doesn't involve welding, milling or turning, on your kitchen table.

You ought to seriously look at the Rock Island Armory (RIA) M1911 in .38 Super. They are VERY reasonably priced and have a very good reputation, both for the guns themselves and the customer service. You can pretty much get TWO RIAs for the price of one Kimber, and bottom of the line Kimbers at that. I was going to buy one of the nickeled .38 Supers before I got laid off in February. When I get back to work, that's going to be my first purchase to celebrate.
 
Q. What is considered a "military" caliber?
Q. Why don't you buy another glock?
I do not consider late model 1911s tough to break in. Kimber suggested I run around 800-1000 rounds through my 1911 to break it in. I shot my friends CDP the other day and I know his doesn't have that many through the tube. It performed flawlessly and was a joy to shoot. I would not hesitate purchasing one of those or a Springfield 1911 model if I were living in the Caribbean. You can get them in various different calibers too - If you're going to consider .38 super...you might want to also consider 9 x 23 Winchester. It cannot be considered a military caliber as I know no military that issues it, though I suppose some small units use specialty weapons of multiple calibers...it is the finest autopistol round there is, though some would debate the 10mm is better. You could also have someone custom make a 9 x 23w 1911 pistol for you and already have it set up for you delivered. There are several custom pistolsmiths that will do that for you, but be ready to pay $2.5k for a decent hand smithed unit.
 
Q. What is considered a "military" caliber?
Q. Why don't you buy another glock?

In handguns, it was originally .45 and then 9mm. People got around it and bought .357 magnums and other calibers not specifically mentioned in the law. Since the idea was always preventing the police and military from being outgunned, the letter of the law kept being modified until private citizens are now restricted to anything .380 and smaller (excluding of course the 9mm).

With a long, spotless ccw record and some friends in the right places, "discretionary" exceptions are made. The .38 Super is doable only because of a loophole that allows an existing permit holder (armed with a letter from a certified instructor) to apply for a ".38 caliber semi automatic pistol". When the powers that be become aware of the Super and its ballistic performance, it too will be restricted to range only status for active sporting shooters along with all other restricted calibers.

Glock does not make a .38 Super, otherwise it would be a no brainer.

The "nine" in 9x23 rules it out right off the bat, unfortunately.
 
You could try Rock Island Armory. Their not as fancy as some of the other big name 1911 makers but they seem to have a pretty good rep. If you get one thats close to GI specs and not one thats been tightened to match specs it should be pretty reliable.
 
Gunfighter, I think I like the look of that. Have you run any of the defensive HP rounds through it (Corbon, Silvertip)?
I will research, but is cc holster selection an issue?


Hiya Buzz,
I have used Win. Silvertips and Glaser Safety Slugs in mine with Zero failures. I have also used Rem,Win, and federal HPs and SPs and they all fed fine.
The "G-Code" holster is a VERY nice and fast holster for CCW ----- check out the link below -- Henning's web site is the BEST place for Witness stuff;
http://www.tanfoglioparts.com/holsters.html

Also check out ---------- http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=159

DSC01504.jpg


Para-Ordnances-2.jpg

As I have said ---- even with my small hands , I have used a custom Para-Ordnance Hi-Cap .38 Super in competition for years UNTILL I tried a Witness Elite Match !!!
 
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BTW

Is it the guns that are restricted, or the ammo too? Most of the time, the 38 Super Witnesses will feed/eject 9x23 just fine. Get your hands on the brass/ammo and you're good to go.

How does the import process work? They're are a number of solid 1911 smiths on the board who I am sure would be willing to go over a new 38 SA 1911 before sending it your way.
 
the hot, sexy babe from outta town that really raises my heartbeat
Like this sweetheart here? :cool:

attachment.php
 
.357 Sig?

Tropical Buzz said:

The letter of the law kept being modified until private citizens are now restricted to anything .380 and smaller (excluding of course the 9mm).

You made no mention of .357 Sig, which would seem to qualify as smaller than .380. We know that it uses a 9mm bullet in a necked down .40 caliber case, but the caliber designation does not indicate that.

But if I were in your situation and wanted a .38 Super, I'd just buy a Colt 1911 in that caliber. I've had enough Colt 1911s over the years to feel pretty confident that a new one is likely to run well out of the box without a gunsmith standing by. I certainly wouldn't bet on an EAA Witness to necessarily run better.
 
Is it the guns that are restricted, or the ammo too? Most of the time, the 38 Super Witnesses will feed/eject 9x23 just fine. Get your hands on the brass/ammo and you're good to go.

How does the import process work? They're are a number of solid 1911 smiths on the board who I am sure would be willing to go over a new 38 SA 1911 before sending it your way.
They restrict the ammo right along with the guns. Ammo can only be purchased from a licensed dealer in the caliber specified on your permit. You can get an import permit to order your own, but again, only in your licensed caliber(s).

Like this sweetheart here?
Walkalong - I can't see the pic (maybe it's a Mac issue) - but I'm curious; what is it?

Tropical Buzz said:

Quote:
The letter of the law kept being modified until private citizens are now restricted to anything .380 and smaller (excluding of course the 9mm).
You made no mention of .357 Sig, which would seem to qualify as smaller than .380. We know that it uses a 9mm bullet in a necked down .40 caliber case, but the caliber designation does not indicate that.

But if I were in your situation and wanted a .38 Super, I'd just buy a Colt 1911 in that caliber. I've had enough Colt 1911s over the years to feel pretty confident that a new one is likely to run well out of the box without a gunsmith standing by. I certainly wouldn't bet on an EAA Witness to necessarily run better.
pogo2, I would buy a .357Sig in a heartbeat, but as with the "9" thing, because of the .357Mag, anything with "357" in its designation has been scrutinized and subsequently restricted. So far, the "38" has not been singled out as a "bad" caliber even though most gun folks are aware that .38, .357 and 9mm are practically the same size-wise.

I know, right - sounds like the people making the rules have less than a clue - and that's exactly the way it is. You guys in the US have a bit of a struggle on your hands with the anti gun crowd, but thank God you have a constitionally guaranteed right on your side. I love my country, but when it comes to the issue of gun ownership, we are at the mercy of the "brainstorms" of less than well informed career politicians. One thing on our side here is that our police force is under equipped and under funded and the majority of people including the police themselves are very much in favour of law abiding citizens being able to defend ourselves and our property.

The EAA guns are definitely a crap shoot. The Elite Match guns do seem to be a little better though.
Thanks atblis. It is starting to look like anything to a certain extent carries some risk of having an issue out of the box - some maybe more so than others. What has become clear to me is that I need to be prepared to develop some basic gunsmithing skills and equip myself accordingly. I am pretty competent with my hands and I have plenty of tools - no choice due to my addiction to old, fast cars - so, I guess I need to become self reliant when it comes to keeping my guns running smoothly.

I really appreciate the replies.
 
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