What's the deal with small calibers?

People back in those days were smaller... more like elves, actually. They didn't know so much about modern things like "guns" and were very susceptible to smaller calibers. Heck, they could even be hurt by things such as "discouraging words" as made famous in the hit song Home on the Range. Since those innocent days, with the help of McDonalds and the Military Channel, people have become much larger and knowledgeable. Anything less than a .44 magnum out of one of those vicious assaulting guns won't cause the modern looter to blink.

Why would a 180 pound person be any more "shocked" then a 180 pound deer shot with a big-bore handgun?

You can expect them to flinch, and then run away to die as they bleed out.

Those with big holes bleed out faster then those with small holes.
That's about it.

Quite often, no signs of any "shock" or knock-down going on unless you hit the spine or brain.

rc

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A deer, unlike most Humans is in fantastic physical shape..probably on the level of an extreme bodybuilder or Gymnast when fat level and pure power are concerned.

I've seen no mention of the law in this thread.

I'm by no means educated on the history of carrying concealed firearms in America, but I wouldn't be suprised if the rate of Americans who carry concealed firearms is higher today than it ever has been, i.e. taking illegal carry, liscensed carry, and legal, unlicensed carry (open and concealed) into account.

Nowdays, one can get an autographed card from the Sheriff himself which says that one has his expressed permission to carry a gun concealed. At that point, one really has nothing to "hide" anymore. So why not carry the big gun, that you shoot the best, that is the most effective and most comforting?

Criminals may tend to carry smaller guns so they won't get "made" or found out by the authorities. Law-abiding people may tend to carry larger guns simply because they CAN, and have no legal ramifications of worry.

Given that this forum is comprised mostly of law-abiding folks, it is understandable that one would be under the impression that most people carry larger guns, because many of the people on here do.

I've never shot a human being. God-willing, I never will.

However, I figure that over the years, I've shot several dozen deer on top of various small game.

Now, let me be the FIRST to call myself lucky. I've NEVER had a deer take more than about 4 steps after a shot. The shots have all ranged from 25 yards to 400 yards. All shots were taken with one of the following:

7.62x39: Remington soft point 123 Grain. Range: (short/long): 25yrds/45yrds.
308 Win.: Ballistic Tip 165 Grain. Range: (short/long): 35yrds/400yrds.
30-06 Springfield: Various 180 Grain: (short/long): 25yrds/400yrds.

Of these shots, I've been lucky that I've never had an animal run, lose meat, or have anything suffer. I have to attribute it to luck rather than my careful shots and placement because of the experiences I've had with my family.

Both my father and my mother are as good a shot as I am-- maybe better. My nephew is a good shot as well.

Even so, I've trailed for my mother an 8 point that was SHOT THROUGH the heart for over ONE MILE. When I came to the animal, it had one shot, and it was a clean heart shot. Go figure.

She used Remington Core-Loct 180 grain 30-06 out of a Remington 700.


Last year, I had to track a deer shot by my father. It hit the slues and I never did recover the animal. He claims a good shot, and he used Remington Core Loct 333 Grain .45-70 at a range of 45 yards using an H&R .45-70 Handi-Rifle.

I had to mercy-kill an 8 point last January for my nephew. It was shot at about 70 yards using a .243 Winchester. I don't know the cartridge, but knowing my father (who buys his rounds), it was Remington Core Loct in a heavy grain for the rifle. The shot was fine, but the damned deer wouldn't die.

I did a head shot at about 10 yards with a Wincester Jacketed Hollowpoint .45ACP 230 Grain. Dead.



My point to all of this?


Who the hell knows what will happen. Do your best. Use the tools you deem most appropriate, and then be ready for what goes wrong.

And sometimes, just be lucky.



-- John

Thats funny because the KO idea came from a man with more hunting experience than you have ever had.

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But unlike him I don't have to sell products, books and or magazine subscriptions to earn a living.

Let's not forget that the favorite weapons of the old west were large caliber guns.

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Wild Bill Hickok carried Navy Colts in 36 caliber and he was very proficient at killing people!!!

bigfatdave said:

I wonder if there were endless arguments at the pubs over the .25ACP vs .32ACP? Or between .45 musket balls and .50 musket balls? (side note, "musket balls" can sound very risque when said aloud)

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I laughed, thanks for this one

Don't many European police forces still use .32 and .380 to this day?

Hollowpoint vs solid---shooting jackrabbits with a .22 the difference is amazing----they can take several solid hits and not even by phased---while a hollowpoint folds em right up instantly--one shot.

Small is sometimes better

People turn their nose up @ the little 380acp. I absolutely LOVE the tiny round. Not the 380acp but the 85-95gr bullet!

I asked myself "why does the 5.56mm / .223Rem do so much damage for such a tiny little projectile?"

ENERGY

With that in mind, I started testing lightwieght bullets in my .357Sig & found the 85-90gr moving @ little over 1700fps, that the almost 600ft lbs. of energy did way more damage than my 45ACP & didn't over-penetrate.

I'm not in LE, so I don't figure I have to take into consideration my shooting a perp through his/her windshield or car door, & w/o a real heavy bullet... I don't have to worry as much, about killing my next door neighbor from a stray 230gr crashing through 4-5 walls while taking out a BG.




BTW - The flames... while killing my night vision, are REALLY COOL!! (laughing like Butthead - uhhh.. hugh, hugh... hugh hugh.. hugh )

Well, that's the thing. All I can do is go off of heresay. What veterans have told me. What police who have been in officer involved shootings have told me. And what I have seen in terms of wounds to people up close and personal after a gun fight.

What they have told me have led to these conclusions:

1.) Carry what you are the most accurate with (caliber wise) because life isn't a John Woo movie, and even getting hit with a shotgun blast won't knock a person to the ground most of the times. Let alone pistol or most rifles.

2.) Always keep shooting while they are in your sights until they do go down.

3.) Hollowpoints not only tend not to do through and through injuries they also tend to cause more damage to tissue. A 9mm becomes a .40 in the body. .40 becomes .45, .45 becomes .50. And an exit wound will be even larger on the off chance it happens. Person is much more likely to go into shock sooner when hit with a hollowpoint. It might not do much in stopping power, but it does a whole lot in causing damage to the body. Which can help to end a fight sooner.

4.) If you ever had to use a rifle, a .223 might not be as powerfull as a .308 or 7mm Rem Mag, but it'll put a hurt on whoever gets hit. And, you can carry more ammo, and often shoot more ammo than someone with a larger caliber.

5.) 7.62x39mm might be the best 0-300 yard compromise round that exists, though past that it' utility quickly drops off.

6.) Always, under all circumstances, no matter what keep atleast one extra mag. The LAST shot will determine the gunfight, and you want to have more ammo than you'll need to ensure you can deliver the last round.

What's the deal with small calibers?

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[I'm slightly confused, I'm always hearing people say how you have to use either a 45ACP or a .308 to even phase an attacker. But my question is, how the heck did people protect themselves back in the first half of the 20th century when they carried 25s and 32s? Are we just obsessed with trying to have the biggest, most powerful thing possible? What are your thoughts?]
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Back in the old days, there was no gun magazines to tell them that there was a new wonder gun of the month, and people didn't know they were terribly undergunned. There was not the proffit driven artifcial market to sell over powered handguns like the S&W 500 and Desert Eagles to people who were weekend target shooters. The poor ingnorant people back then were under the foolish idea of practical guns. Guns that were easy to carry, yet effective at killing an attacker. Why, people were so uneducated and ignorant on guns, that the lowly .38 special was the standard police gun for 80 years. And cops did well with it. They had no idea how bad it was.

From a period in the late 1980's and on, you have a artificially created market to stimulate sales. This is done by constantly creating a new craze in guns, the "must have it" drive. It's called corporate greed. The gun rags are arm in arm with the gun makers since the gun makers advertising keeps the gun magazines alive. It's all about money, pure and simple. Most modern gun owners fall for it. Our grandfathers never had this, because they had a .32, and if push came to shove, it worked. Criminals didn't know they were suppose to shrug off a .25 or .32 bullet in the guts, like todays highly educated criminals.

The old .25's and .32's worked because a hole punched through a liver or heart is going to drop you, and kill you. Thats that. Any gun person who thinks a small caliber is not a deadly weapon is an idiot. When a major organ is punctured, blood preasure drops and the person looses conciousness. If the bullet does not hit a vital organ, it won't matter if its a .25 or .45. In the George Temple incident, the man took 4 body hits from a .45 with no affect. It wasn't till a 5th shot to the head, that he keeled over and died. All this after a .40 from the cops gun glanced off the rib cage.

Maybe the people in the old days were better shots, or cooler heads. Made the shots count. If the bullet goes in the right place, it dosn't matter what it is. Too many yahoo's today put blind faith in that they have the Guns and Ammo gun of the month, they're all set. I'd rather depend on the old codger who's been shooting that same .22 Colt woodsman since 1947, and never read a single gun magazine in his life.

the real reason you need larger & more powerful calibers is because people & animals are similar to bacteria and they will develop a resistance over time if you continually use the same thing top kill them.
back in the olden days a 30-30 could kill deer all day long but sometime in the 30's they started developing a resistance to bullets fired from a 30-30 so hunters started using the 30-06 on them & all was well, or so they thought. then all of a sudden the 30-06 could no longer reliably kill deer but wise man stepped up to the plate to meet the challenge with his .300 win mag and the balance was restored for a short time. now it seems the deer have evolved again and we must use a .300 ultra mag to get the job done.
hopefully the cartridge designers are hard at work designing a stronger more powerful cartridge for the new super deer that are just around the corner

Me thinks, in some cases, some guys need bigger weapons to
try and compensate for their much 'smaller' guns.

The old small calibers still work but the newer small calibers are better because they're rimless, cycle well through semi autos and were designed with modern gun powders in mind. There's still a ton of small handguns out there.

The theory with is big calibers is that you can miss a vital organ but the leave a hole big enough that your target will still bleed out and die. I haven't seen enough evidence to back this up but my handgun hunting experience is limited.

My 'go to' side arm is a Browning HP 9mm.
I've never shot anyone and hopefully I'll never have to.
My thinking is three quick shots fired ought to do the trick.

Post 38 pretty much sums it up. IMHO

Couple of things to consider

1. People are bigger today than they were in 1900. Just look at kids in the mall.

2. Many smaller caliber .25 and .32's were carried in coat, and pants pockets, waist band, and were shot from just above the hip, not from shoulder height. See next item

3. Infection killed many more people back then than it does today. Even today a shot to the gut is much worse than the torso due to the spread of infection from the bowls thru the body.

4. Dont forget there were many .44's and 45LC, in the old west

Just my .02

AD

Also keep in mind that people are better fed and larger nowadays than they were then.
Back then people didn't work out in gyms like they do now. It was unpopular to be "muscle bound". When people got their exercise it was at their jobs working. Now criminals get send to jail/training camps where they watch cable T.V., compare techniques with other criminals, eat nutritious meals, and lift weights all at the taxpayer's expense.

I think it may be a combination of many of the things said here.

Realize that "stopping power" and "killing power" are NOT the same thing.

I read in an FBI study that a persons predisposition to being shot often contributes to their reaction to it. Some people believe they will fall down when hit. Therefore, when shot....they fall down. Not because they physically are made to do so, but because they already believe they will.

The persons intent has much to do with this. If their intent is to merely rob you, shooting them with anything could possibly lead to "stopping power". BG is going to rob you, you shoot him with a .22.......robbing you doesn't look so good anymore. Hence he "stops" doing so. The exchange is a profit/loss decision. When a nutcase is angry, and decides to kill you, it is a different story. There is no profit/loss bargaining. He is going to kill you. Getting shot with a .22 is of no consequence. He is going to kill you. Predisposition to being shot is of no consequence. He is going to kill you. The ratio of "stopping power" to "killing power" is a little closer on this one, as you are probably going to have to kill him (quickly) in order to stop him.

I'm no historian, but in the early 20th century, I don't think the proliferation of psychotic killers was as widespread. Sure, you had nutcases, but I don't think as many people possessed the intent to kill as is found in the general population today. Therefore, the majority of assaults were probably of the former type I have mentioned: profit/loss decisions. Coupled with the mention of infection and uncertain surgical techniques mentioned in previous posts likely leading to a slow, painful, and prolonged death, the tiniest little hole by the smallest caliber leads to very bad consequenses. This is tremendous "stopping power" to a robber intending to profit from assault. The loss scenario is HUGE compared to the profit. Therefore a tiny little gun was probably very effective in "stopping power".

Now, today, I think there is a bigger percentage of......just plain ol' BAD PEOPLE. There has to be a larger concentration of nasty S.O.B.'s than there were in the early 20th century. These are the ones who are not ruled by the profit/loss decision making process. These are the ones who just won't be stopped by the prospect of something unpleasant happening.

I refuse to trust my life to a caliber that, while having sufficient "stopping power" to work on the profit/loss robber, fails at stopping someone intent on my destruction. I do not get to choose who assaults me, therefore I'm covering all the bases by carrying something that has a "stopping power" that is closer to its "killing power".

You can keep your .380's, .25's and .32's. While most likely effective on mere "robbers", they will take a well aimed and well placed disabling shot to stop a determined killer.

9mm and .40 S&W are still a little "borderline" in my book. Although certainly lethal, I want the BG to stop NOW!

.45 ACP hollow points at 1225 fps for me. I want something that unmistakeably reminds a BG that he is supposed to fall down.

Well said Superlite27! (Congrats hitting 500!)

I feel the same way that you do & figure my tiny 85gr Winchester Silvertip HP w/ 586ft lbs of "stopping" power (from my 357Sig) is going to do roughly the same internal "damage" as your .45ACP w/ 185gr=618ft lbs or 200gr=666ft lbs albeit leaving a slightly smaller entrance hole & no exit hole.

I'm guessing as to your 45acp bullet weight & got my calculations here:

http://www.reloadammo.com/footpound2.htm

Superlite27 said - 9mm and .40 S&W are still a little "borderline" in my book. Although certainly lethal

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If you believe what you're saying.... why would you knock someone else's choice for SD?

Superlite27 said - When a nutcase is angry, and decides to kill you, it is a different story.

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Yes, I agree w/ you there.... BUT.... somebody who "wants to kill you" is going to be stopped w/ LETHAL FORCE. A lowly 25acp, 32acp, or 380acp will do the job albeit w/ several rds. VS. 1 or 2 rds from a larger caliber.

I believe "stopping power" is relative to the ENERGY=damage of the bullet used & not just the "size" of the bullet.

Would I choose a .25acp for my "primary" SD weapon? No... but if that was all I could afford or... it was the only thing available.... so be it.

FWIW - All things being equal, & due to my current financial situation, I had to choose between my H&K compact 45acp (8+1) or my 229Sig in 357Sig (12+1) for my SD weapon.

It was a hard choice, but in the end, I kept the Sig because the "firepower". (energy x rds = stopping power) It was a sad day though, as I sure loved my H&K.

When someone is on serious drugs they won't be stopped as easily with smaller calibers. Smaller calibers will do but .45 is more effective because it only takes one bullet to put you on the floor, with or without drugs.

I think another factor was that most fights then were fueled by alcohol, not Crack, Meth, and other pain numbing, mind altering drugs so common today.

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I wouldn't make that large of a distinction between the illegal and legal drugs (alcohol). pain numbing, mind altering that's a pretty good description of your garden variety booze.

Are all of you 'possum guys sure they weren't faking?

Back in the Ol' days, didn't they have the 45 long Colt.

Here I was thinking it was kind of popular.

There sure is a lot of talk of killing possums in this thread...

I've found the most effective way to do so is to shoot the critter with a BB gun. It will then play dead (the last 3 have for me) and you can walk up, put the blade of a shovel on its neck, and give it a good hard stomp. Still won't break the tough hide, but will snap its neck. Efficient and doesn't wake up the neighbors.