TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
No one said an AR is MORE practical but you sure can't argue that it's any LESS practical.
Why an AR over a good bolt gun?
- Thread starter wickedsprint
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No one said an AR is MORE practical but you sure can't argue that it's any LESS practical.
A good AR can shoot on the same level with a good deal of the bolt guns out there that aren't used for super-long range shooting. Most ARs are capable of 1-1.5" MoA.
Although you're right on price, an AR is a reliable platform. People underestimate its reliability a bit too much. Sure, it isn't going to be inherently reliable due to it being a semi-auto, but with proper maintenance it'll work forever. I have personally only had one jam with my new AR out of about 250 rounds down it so far, and it was from a bad round out of a lot of sub-par ammo (I hate Wolf ammo)
This may be true, but it isn't like you'll be replacing parts on an AR that cost hundreds of dollars. Even if you shoot the crap out of your AR, the only things that will really wear out are your mags and the extractor, but that's really it. Both are simple fixes.
I also don't have to manually re-chamber my gun for the next shot, meaning I can focus on my target much more consistently. I also feel less recoil.
Sniper has bolt gun.
Spotter has AR.
Best of both worlds.
With an AR I can easily have 90 rounds on me as I normaly dress. More rounds would not be hard to accomplish with a bag that has a strap. This is a trunk gun scenario.
My bolt gun is more accurate due to the optics/bipod and some other issues. It is also heavier etc. The .308 AR's kind of blend the 2.
I like both & would have a hard time choosing if I had to have only the other. That is not even throwing M1 Garand, M1A or M1 carbine into the mix.
I have been shooting bolt guns lately - but that just happens to be what I'm trying to optimize.
Spotter has AR.
Best of both worlds.
With an AR I can easily have 90 rounds on me as I normaly dress. More rounds would not be hard to accomplish with a bag that has a strap. This is a trunk gun scenario.
My bolt gun is more accurate due to the optics/bipod and some other issues. It is also heavier etc. The .308 AR's kind of blend the 2.
I like both & would have a hard time choosing if I had to have only the other. That is not even throwing M1 Garand, M1A or M1 carbine into the mix.
I have been shooting bolt guns lately - but that just happens to be what I'm trying to optimize.
Actually I only agree with armed bear on that responce concerning a percentage of those who buy the AR. Most younger people I know are looking to buy a house first, then look for an AR. Most of the video gamers dont do anything but video games, and dont have ARs, or an interest in them, in fact some are antigun.
As far as putting 10 rds on paper, heres a target from last Sunday, I had 1.5 hours before a cookout so I drove to the club I belong to. Keep in mind I havent shot much in a while, but this was 3 mags loaded 20 rds each, shot in 4 minutes including mag changes, relaxing etc. This was at 100 yds with a Bushnell T-dot reticle scope with no magnification what so ever. Keep in mind for those who think that ammo effects how you shoot drastically, this was all Barnaul Brown bear.
60 rounds 100 yards, One minute of camel. DPMS lopro classic with MOE stock, M73 quadrails, 110 lumen flashlight, hogue grip, and Bushnell MP scope T-dot reticle.
As far as putting 10 rds on paper, heres a target from last Sunday, I had 1.5 hours before a cookout so I drove to the club I belong to. Keep in mind I havent shot much in a while, but this was 3 mags loaded 20 rds each, shot in 4 minutes including mag changes, relaxing etc. This was at 100 yds with a Bushnell T-dot reticle scope with no magnification what so ever. Keep in mind for those who think that ammo effects how you shoot drastically, this was all Barnaul Brown bear.
60 rounds 100 yards, One minute of camel. DPMS lopro classic with MOE stock, M73 quadrails, 110 lumen flashlight, hogue grip, and Bushnell MP scope T-dot reticle.
"The videogame generation" is not some deep insult. It also doesn't imply that everyone is a gamer.
If you look at what guns people were all hot to buy in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, etc., you will see correlations with popular culture.
Safari rifles, .44 Magnum revolvers, Jungle Carbines, Winchester lever actions, whatever you can name over the years. Many have been popular because enough people thought they were "neat" at a given time, due to movies, magazines, and the like.
This is not WRONG or anything. Never said it was.
My point was just that I've seen a lot of black rifle buyers who didn't make some informed, rational decision about functionality, based on extensive experience with firearms.
When I got back into shooting, the first thing I bought was a stainless Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. The more I shot, the less I liked it, and the more I got interested in other guns, like bolt-actions. One of these days, I'll have to get a Farquharson single-shot... But that wasn't the FIRST gun I thought to get. I didn't even know what it was.
If you look at what guns people were all hot to buy in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, etc., you will see correlations with popular culture.
Safari rifles, .44 Magnum revolvers, Jungle Carbines, Winchester lever actions, whatever you can name over the years. Many have been popular because enough people thought they were "neat" at a given time, due to movies, magazines, and the like.
This is not WRONG or anything. Never said it was.
My point was just that I've seen a lot of black rifle buyers who didn't make some informed, rational decision about functionality, based on extensive experience with firearms.
When I got back into shooting, the first thing I bought was a stainless Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. The more I shot, the less I liked it, and the more I got interested in other guns, like bolt-actions. One of these days, I'll have to get a Farquharson single-shot... But that wasn't the FIRST gun I thought to get. I didn't even know what it was.
Stirling XD
Member
The AR15 is being used a lot by varmint hunters these days and at some pretty impressive ranges. I have hunted with both bolt and semi-auto rifles. Both rifles have their merits. 10 years ago I would have thought spending money on an AR15 to be a colossel waste. But now I would love to have an AR vaminting rifle for hunting coyotes and shooting prarie dogs (need more money). But for deer, elk, and antelope, I will probably stick with my bolt. If I ever get the opportunity to hunt in Africa, I will take either a bolt or a double (probably both).
Typically, bolt guns are more accurate than semi-autos. But most guns are more accurate than most shooters/hunters anyway. In other words, people that can't hit the target with a semi-auto probably wouldn't do any better with a bolt or a laser for that matter.
Typically, bolt guns are more accurate than semi-autos. But most guns are more accurate than most shooters/hunters anyway. In other words, people that can't hit the target with a semi-auto probably wouldn't do any better with a bolt or a laser for that matter.
That's absolutely true.
It's also true that the same demographic bought single actions and Winchesters in the '50s, safari-style bolt guns in the '60s, .44 Magnums in the '70s, etc.
Now they're buying ARs.
That DOES NOT IMPLY anything about the AR platform.
On the merits, the AR doesn't have to be babied, it's one of the easiest semiautos to clean, it is easy to get good accuracy, it has readily-available high-capacity magazines, a multitude of custom parts available, and it's modular so it can be built up to work for just about anything. That's why you might get one over a bolt gun. (There are also some reasons you might want a bolt gun over an AR, but that's not the question.)
All I was addressing was this: people who buy ARs aren't all making their choices based on this list, or on the basis of much at all.
CoRoMo
Member
I'd die if I was in CQB with a bolty. That's why.
wickedsprint
Member
Taliv, stop confusing practical with functionality. Most of your benefits only apply during hobby use or a firefight, neither of which are practical examples unless you get paid to do them or they put food on the table.
FYI I'm not whining, I already own a nice AR.
As far as benefits to a bolt gun...most people I've handed an AR15 cannot shoot it to save their life..hopefully never proven to be literally.
I noticed the same thing when we had to qualify with the M4/16 with iron sights. Not one person on the range didn't experience at least 1 jam of sorts.
I've never had a jam with a bolt-action
My bolt-action is cheaper and more accurate than my AR15
My bolt-action was half the price.
I can own my bolt-action in all 50 states
that doesn't even make sense to me. what else is there besides hobby use and defense, which are the two primary use cases as far as I'm concerned?
that is not my experience. i take college kids to the range all the time and let them shoot my guns. they never seem to have a problem hitting anything.
i've had several malfunctions with bolts. people complain about the magazines and 'bottom metal' in bolt guns all the time for a reason. many just don't feed well at all.
search this forum for the hundreds of threads on controlled-round vs push feed, and the claw extractors. those controversies all exist because of malfunctions people have with bolt guns.
mljdeckard
Member
Most ARs are 1/2-1 MOA accurate out of the box these days. The vast majority of shooters aren't going to be able to tell any difference between an AR and a bolt rifle in accuracy.
If we were comparing bolt rifles to AR-10s, the clear advantage would be cost. The AR has higher capacity, but costs much more. Again, most shooters aren't anywhere near good enough to make a difference with it being higher capacity or semi-auto. (When I had my M1A I wasn't shooting it any faster than I would shoot a bolt gun.)
I'm not ready to drop my Howa 1500 .270 for my AR or SKS as a hunting rifle, and I wouldn't grab my .270 first for defensive uses either. The truth is, it's darn near impossible to imagine using a bolt rifle for legitimate self-defense. The range you would be using it for is offensive by pretty much any definition. (Unless it is literally the only rifle you have.)
There's a reason we don't like to limit ourselves to only one gun. But if forced, I would rather use my EBRs for hunting than try to use my hunting rifles for defense.
The only malfunction I've ever had with a bolt rifle was my 1917 Enfield that kept popping the last round out of the magazine when I opened the bolt on it. I talked to an old gunsmith who had a new follower kicking around in a drawer, put it in, and it was fine. But at the same time, pretty much all of the malfunctions I have ever had with an M-16 were due to either blanks, worn magazines, or a combination of both.
If we were comparing bolt rifles to AR-10s, the clear advantage would be cost. The AR has higher capacity, but costs much more. Again, most shooters aren't anywhere near good enough to make a difference with it being higher capacity or semi-auto. (When I had my M1A I wasn't shooting it any faster than I would shoot a bolt gun.)
I'm not ready to drop my Howa 1500 .270 for my AR or SKS as a hunting rifle, and I wouldn't grab my .270 first for defensive uses either. The truth is, it's darn near impossible to imagine using a bolt rifle for legitimate self-defense. The range you would be using it for is offensive by pretty much any definition. (Unless it is literally the only rifle you have.)
There's a reason we don't like to limit ourselves to only one gun. But if forced, I would rather use my EBRs for hunting than try to use my hunting rifles for defense.
The only malfunction I've ever had with a bolt rifle was my 1917 Enfield that kept popping the last round out of the magazine when I opened the bolt on it. I talked to an old gunsmith who had a new follower kicking around in a drawer, put it in, and it was fine. But at the same time, pretty much all of the malfunctions I have ever had with an M-16 were due to either blanks, worn magazines, or a combination of both.
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wickedsprint
Member
Taliv, no reason to get super defensive I was bored and posted a topic up *shrugs*
All I'm saying is that things like rate of fire and capacity only have real practical concerns in a firefight. So unless we are involved or actually preparing for a firefight..a lot of the AR advantages simply become "cool factors", not no kidding practical advantages.
Your friends shoot better than my friends.
I was bored and posted a topic up *shrugs* All I'm saying is that things like rate of fire and capacity only have real practical concerns in a firefight. So unless we are involved or actually preparing for a firefight..a lot of the AR advantages simply become "cool factors", not no kidding practical advantages.
Your friends shoot better than my friends.
OregonJohnny
Member
Disclaimer: I own a bolt .30-06 and until recently, owned a Bushmaster AR. (I want to get another AR eventually). I skipped to the end of the thread, so forgive me if this has been posted.
My reason for liking ARs over bolt-action rifles is: FUN!
I once went out in the desert with my buddy and a truck full of guns. After shooting bolt rifles, lever rifles, pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and finally our ARs, my AR was by far the most fun I had that day. We set up pop cans at about 200 yards, and I blasted away with my scoped Bushmaster 20". ACCURATE! Watching pop cans dance around at 200 yards for 30 shots in a row is just...plain...fun.
We shot his scoped .300 Ultra Mag bolt-action at almost 500 yards, hitting the bull each time, but after 3 or 4 shots, it wasn't fun anymore.
My reason for liking ARs over bolt-action rifles is: FUN!
I once went out in the desert with my buddy and a truck full of guns. After shooting bolt rifles, lever rifles, pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and finally our ARs, my AR was by far the most fun I had that day. We set up pop cans at about 200 yards, and I blasted away with my scoped Bushmaster 20". ACCURATE! Watching pop cans dance around at 200 yards for 30 shots in a row is just...plain...fun.
We shot his scoped .300 Ultra Mag bolt-action at almost 500 yards, hitting the bull each time, but after 3 or 4 shots, it wasn't fun anymore.
NickEllis
Member
Ever try to shoot hi-power with a turnbolt? How easy was it to meet your rapid fire seated time limit? Sure it can be done, easily, with practice. But I've rarely seen a new AR shooter run out of time, or have problems with the manual of arms.
Practicality? For hipower competition, I chose a semi-auto. This is neither war, nor LEO related
Practicality? For hipower competition, I chose a semi-auto. This is neither war, nor LEO related
sgb
Member
One platform with great ergonomics that can be easily configured for many different shooters and many different applications. Need medium to long Range?
How about short to medium Range?
Or Close Quarters?
Or maybe just more punch.
Each and every one operates the same.
CoRoMo
Member
wicked...
It sounds like you are mixing the purpose of each gun. Each is a different tool for different purposes.
Sort of like asking, "Why have an expensive socket set when one set of pliers can grip any size of bolt head"?
It appears that from your posts, the uses you put a rifle to don't necessitate anything more sophisticated than a bolt action rifle.
Some people/purposes in fact require such sophistication.
It sounds like you are mixing the purpose of each gun. Each is a different tool for different purposes.
Sort of like asking, "Why have an expensive socket set when one set of pliers can grip any size of bolt head"?
It appears that from your posts, the uses you put a rifle to don't necessitate anything more sophisticated than a bolt action rifle.
Some people/purposes in fact require such sophistication.
Nothing wrong with bolt guns..I have had them..just like semi-auto.
An I bought my AR back in 1980..why?...because, yes, it was cool looking..an I knew my brother carried one in Nam back in 69'. I bought it an really loved it, my brother visited an I decided to surprise him an let him shoot it a few times down at the swamp...that was the only time he has shot it or wanted to see it, an surprized me when he told me how he didn't like them, an wished in combat he had been able to keep his M-14 from basic. Anyway I still love my AR, an understand it...but I think people still want them today for the single reason that they are just a great looking weapon...among others.
An I bought my AR back in 1980..why?...because, yes, it was cool looking..an I knew my brother carried one in Nam back in 69'. I bought it an really loved it, my brother visited an I decided to surprise him an let him shoot it a few times down at the swamp...that was the only time he has shot it or wanted to see it, an surprized me when he told me how he didn't like them, an wished in combat he had been able to keep his M-14 from basic. Anyway I still love my AR, an understand it...but I think people still want them today for the single reason that they are just a great looking weapon...among others.
numaone
Member
I think a lot (most) of it is personal preference. Why do you like pink when I like blue?
Would I ever buy a BMW for $70K+ when my $20k Honda is almost as functional as the BMW? No, not unless I had too much money. Sure the BMW comes with twice the horsepower, a better suspension and a softer ride, will I ever know the difference unless I hitting an on-ramp at over 60 MPH full throttle? Besides, I like cloth seats over leather seats any day!
I think it's the same argument for an AR. Some people just like the darned things. Myself included. I have a nice Remmy 700 and wouldn't trade it for anything... Well maybe a nice LMT AR if I could buy one... ok just joking, but you get the drift. They have different market segments.
I was at the range last weekend with my .22 rifle working at 100 yards. College kid next to me with 3 ARs , worth atleast $3000 each, didn't have a clue how to use them. He asked me to help him sight his TA31 ACOG on one of them. When I got it zero'd in for him, I watched him shoot it and noticed he was clean missing the paper at 50 yard. I informed him, "I think you are shooting a little high" to which he said, "Yea, I'm just shooting at the back of the berm." Hell for $.50 a round, just give me the $15 for that magazine you wasted. But he was more than happy with his $3000+ noisemakers basting $15 away in a matter of seconds.
Well that's my worthless $.02. And that's why the need to keep the penny, because without them, I couldn't give it.
Would I ever buy a BMW for $70K+ when my $20k Honda is almost as functional as the BMW? No, not unless I had too much money. Sure the BMW comes with twice the horsepower, a better suspension and a softer ride, will I ever know the difference unless I hitting an on-ramp at over 60 MPH full throttle? Besides, I like cloth seats over leather seats any day!
I think it's the same argument for an AR. Some people just like the darned things. Myself included. I have a nice Remmy 700 and wouldn't trade it for anything... Well maybe a nice LMT AR if I could buy one... ok just joking, but you get the drift. They have different market segments.
I was at the range last weekend with my .22 rifle working at 100 yards. College kid next to me with 3 ARs , worth atleast $3000 each, didn't have a clue how to use them. He asked me to help him sight his TA31 ACOG on one of them. When I got it zero'd in for him, I watched him shoot it and noticed he was clean missing the paper at 50 yard. I informed him, "I think you are shooting a little high" to which he said, "Yea, I'm just shooting at the back of the berm." Hell for $.50 a round, just give me the $15 for that magazine you wasted. But he was more than happy with his $3000+ noisemakers basting $15 away in a matter of seconds.
Well that's my worthless $.02. And that's why the need to keep the penny, because without them, I couldn't give it.
Zundfolge
Member
Agreed.
Its like a Jeep owner asking a Porsche owner why they bought an inferior vehicle.
Or the guy eating an apple asking the guy eating the orange why he's eating the inferior fruit.
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