Why no improved AR bolts?

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gvnwst

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I recently been reading about the 'oldness' of AR bolts, what horrible metal they are made of, and how we could make ones that are "sooooo much better". I know why the goverment doesn't change...(milspec needs to be updated more often) Why don't we, the civilan market, make better ones? I know, I know, we don't use our ARs like SAWs, although some of us whish we could:evil:, but i have seen several AR bolts just go SNAP! and break. Wouldn't it also improve the AR's ability to stand more bolt thrust? It would be pretty simple to use a metal more suited to this application than carpenter 158, wouldn't it?


Thanks for the awnsers,


gvn
:)
 
Several manufacturers make Bolts that are as good as "milspec" in the civilian market. Why not just buy one of theirs if you are so concerned?

One of the biggest issues with the AR15 bolt is the design itself. Not necessarily the metal. Considering the stress that bolts go through...
 
Mil-spec bolts are made with carpenter 158 case hardining metal, if i remember correctly. i am just wondering why we haven't made better ones, carpenter 158 is 60's tech....:)
 
but i have seen several AR bolts just go SNAP! and break.

This just in to the news desk.... metal things sometimes fatigue and break, no matter what they are made of. Film at 11.

Find any firearm that experiences zero failures. Probably won't :)

Given the number of ARs out there would you really expect to not see anything break now and then?

And how much would you be willing to pay for this "improvement", that's the other thing.
 
This just in to the news desk.... metal things sometimes fatigue and break, no matter what they are made of. Film at 11.

A higher strength to resist fatiuge is what i am looking for.


And how much would you be willing to pay for this "improvement", that's the other thing.

No clue, i was just asking..... if it doesn't cost too much more, i would buy one.:)

oh, the army says, for their M16s/M4s, that the bolt will last 7,500 rounds. some civilan bolts will last 40,000 rounds due to less harsh treatment. i think the army could benefit form this too. but again, stupid mil-spec. i like the most reliable parts in my gun possible, as sometimes, i really try to make my guns come to their knees.:D
 
I have not seen too many Colt mil-spec bolts break.

Could it possibly be that someone out there in AR-Clone-land is making bolts that are not as good?
Shirley not! :eek:
(And don't call me Shirley!)

As for the government changing the type of steel used in the M-16 mil-spec bolt, that would cost a lot of money.

Money some fat-cat General would rather spend on a battery operated, computer controlled, TV screen sighted, 20 pound future-weapon replacement for the M-16.

God help the GI's when that happens!

rcmodel
 
I have the LMT enhanced bolt in one of my AR's. It has functioned perfectly, but then again, so have all my standard milspec bolts. The LMT unit sure has a nice feel to it. I would be interested in reading any direct "torture-test" comparison between the LMT enhanced, and the milspec if any is out there. I have never found any though.
 
Leitner Wise made a bolt that I think was machined out of the same steel they make gears out of. But I don't see it on their website anymore. The machine work on it looked excellent.

I have heard the LMT enhanced carrier is hit or miss. The bolt itself I think is GTG though.
 
but i have seen several AR bolts just go SNAP! and break. Wouldn't it also improve the AR's ability to stand more bolt thrust? It would be pretty simple to use a metal more suited to this application than carpenter 158, wouldn't it?
What, roughly, were the round counts?
By whom were they made?
Did they undergo High Pressure Testing and/or Magnetic Particle Inspection?

Based upon what I've read from Bartholomew Roberts, Pat Rogers, and several others; rarely do Colt, LMT, and other MPI & HPT AR bolts snap. The consensus from my reading has been that MPI/HPT bolts shear a lug or lugs somewhere in the 12k to 20k round count range. In contrast, off brand bolts which undergo neither HPT nor MPI reportedly break at the cam pin hole with great frequency at round counts well under 10K.

We already know how to heat treat the current bolts, and we already know how they wear on and in relation to the carrier group and barrel extension. Perhaps MPI & HPT are cheaper insurance against bolt breakage than having R&D bolts made from a different steel. Maybe beefing up the bolt would cause the carrier group to become the relative weak link which wears out first. A spare bolt, firing pin, cam pin, and FP retaining pin are easy to carry on the rifle in a stock or grip storage compartment. A spare bolt swap is an easy & quick fix that remedies many problems in the field. When you get home you can then analyze to see if it was the bolt itself, the extractor, the extractor spring, or the gas rings. A spare BCG solves fewer problems and is harder to keep on the rifle.
 
^^^^ What he said. While milspec bolts can and have broken in use and testing, the problem is far more prevalent in non-milspec bolts. Where you really see it is when you take a non-milspec bolt and run it hard (like in organized training).

mike
 
I've read that the ar15 bolt "problem" comes from 16 inch carbines using the m4 length gas tube, therefore putting some serious strain on those bolts. It's supposedly the reason why the mid length carbines were developed.

Furthermore, I've never heard about such problems with rifles following the AR18 design which utilizes a short stroke piston, along with an ar15 style bolt. My guess is that due to the accelerating momentum needed for the piston to push the carrier, the bolt does not have a massive amount of force tugging on it to rotate out of the breach..........in comparison to 16" M4's of course.
 
If AR style bolts last longer in an AR18-ish action, I would suspect that the primary cause of that would be less exposure to heat rather than carrier velocity...

The FN SCAR rifle, when properly beaten on, should give some good real world data there.
 
Coronach is right.
Mil-spec bolts do fail and the majority of the bolts are used on, gasp, Colt produced M4 carbines that are heavily used on the full auto setting.

M16A1 and A2 rifle bolts fail at a much lower rate.
I was a Small Arms Repairman during the late 1970s and early 1980s and I have seen and repaired rifles with bolt failures.
These were all M16A1 rifles and god only knows how many rounds were fired through the rifles before the bolt finally broke.
The bolts that really failed always broke at the cam pin through hole.
I have also seen bolts that blew the extractor assembly off the bolt and sheared the bolt lugs in the extractor area.
The bolt failures occurred in Colt, Harrington Richardson, and Hydramatic made rifles.
The Harrington Richardson made rifles seemed to be the most prevelant rifles that had bolt failure issues.
The interesting thing is that CAR15 rifles or M177A1 carbines also came into the shop for repair and I don't ever recall one that had a bolt failure.
These carbines were all, gasp, Colt made.

Civilian commercial bolts fail, no doubt, I have also repaired a couple of rifles with bolt failure.
It is my opinion that given the much reduced stresses on a semi automatic rifle bolt, these failures should not have occurred, at least they should not have occurred at the claimed number of rounds fired through the weapon.

I have an observation, don't know if it means anything or not.
The commercial bolts that I have seen that failed all appear to have not been machined correctly in the cam pin area.
Put them back together and the cam pin would slide into the hole from the top or the bottom of the bolt.
A correctly machined bolt will not allow the cam pin to enter the bottom hole, it is intentionally machined smaller to prevent someone from inadvertantly installing the bolt into the bolt carrier backwards.
At first I thought this was just due to distortion of the metal due to the breakage until I checked out a few bolts from the source where these bolts came from and they had the same issue, cam pin would go in from the top or the bottom.
The additional metal removed to allow this to occur may have weakened the bolts enough to allow them to fail with moderate use.

Another observation I have is that I have not ever seen a commercial bolt that has failed at the extractor as the M16A1 rifles were prone to do.
I have been working on commercial AR15 rifles since 1989.
In almost twenty years of working on these rifles, and I mean a bunch of AR15 rifles, from just about every big name company out there as i do work for guys who shoot competetively, I have repaired two, maybe three, rifles for broken bolts and none with a sheared extractor.

I know bolts fail.
I am pretty sure bolts fail at these Tactical shooting schools because they subject the rifles to the same types of abuse that causes bolts to fail in the military.
I also feel the subject of bolt failure may be a bit overblown for the average shooter, and by average shooter I mean the guy who is shooting 1500 to 2000 rounds a year through his rifle.

As for Carpenter 158 steel, it is better stuff than one might think and while it is 60s technology and better steels could be utilized for bolts, I highly doubt the Government is going to spring for new bolts for every single rifle in the inventory, provided they would spring for the Research and Development money to prove there is a better bolt steel in the first place.

Carpenter 158 bolts are good, they do the job, and they are cheap to replace.
If you stay awake at night worrying that your rifle bolt is going to fail at the most inopportune time, I have a couple of suggestions.
1. Carry a back-up handgun and practice with it.
2. Buy a Magpul MIAD grip, install it on your rifle and get the grip core designed to keep a spare bolt and firing pin, buy a spare bolt and firing pin, keep this grip core in the grip at all times.
3. Buy a bottle of Sominex and get some sleep, you worrry too much.
 
If AR style bolts last longer in an AR18-ish action, I would suspect that the primary cause of that would be less exposure to heat rather than carrier velocity...

For the shearing of the ar15 bolt? I wasn't talking about the back half of an ar15 bolt snapping in two. I'm talking about the lugs breaking off.
 
What, roughly, were the round counts?

Above 5,000


By whom were they made?

some were bushmaster, some colt.


Did they undergo High Pressure Testing and/or Magnetic Particle Inspection?

not sure.

I am pretty sure bolts fail at these Tactical shooting schools because they subject the rifles to the same types of abuse that causes bolts to fail in the military.


That is exactly where the bolts were failing.


I also feel the subject of bolt failure may be a bit overblown for the average shooter, and by average shooter I mean the guy who is shooting 1500 to 2000 rounds a year through his rifle.


some of my rifles i have put 20,000 rounds through in less than a year.

thanks for the replies everyone
:)
 
check out a closeup pic of the knight's sr15 bolt. definitely different.
 
On another note, not all bolts are made of out Carpenter 158 steel. Bolts can be made out of any steel that the manufacturer specifies, even if it doesn't necessarily have the same properties as 158. At least some manufacturers have used 4140 steel for bolts.

I have no idea how widespread that practice is; but if you start comparing bolt prices, you see prices like $162.50 (from SAW) for a Colt bolt or $75 from Bravo Company for a 158 bolt.

Compare that to $56 for a bolt from Bushmaster or other manufacturers in a similar price range and it is clear that somebody is getting innovative on cost reduction.

I also notice that manufacturers are starting to add "Made out of Carpenter 158" to their catalogs (Bravo Company and Daniel Defense for example), which makes me wonder what is going on at the sites that don't discuss that in their catalogs.
 
Improving an AR bolt to near indestructable status requires a major redesign, not just simple geometric changes or the type of metal being used.

You have to remove heat by intrducing a piston, have symmetric and large locking lugs that can handle unrealistic firing schedules, and either a cam lug milled from the bolt body or more metal around the cam pin hole if the cam pin itself is separate from the bolt, etc.
 
The Government perspective:

We do not even consider an engineering change and backfit unless

a) System availability is affected so that there are no usable spares (rifles=system in this case)
b) The failing UUT part is substantially underperforming its design life expectancy

Neither is the case. To you, your AR clone is a valuable investment that ought to last a lifetime. It does, its lifetime, not yours. To us, it is a tool that when it breaks, we scrap it and issue another one.
 
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