.458 Lott for Deer?

Maverick223 · Jun 13, 2009

I am strongly considering purchasing a CZ 550 Field Grade Safari in .458WM or .458Lott. :what:

I have yet to shoulder a 550 American, but I like the hogback stock on the Euro version so I may get that and ream it out to chamber the .458Lott. I plan to reload at about 45-70 velocities (405 @ about 1700fps) and cast my own for target and likely for game as well. I plan to use it for anything from Whitetail Deer up to Brown Bear. I have decided against the .450 Marlin unless I can find an affordable CRF action that offers it (none that I know of). Any thoughts?

Floppy_D · Jun 13, 2009

It's probably going to kill a deer.

natman · Jun 13, 2009

I strongly suspect that even the wimpy old 458 Win Mag will handle a brown bear. If you plan on downloading, what is the purpose of rechambering to 458Lott?

Vern Humphrey · Jun 13, 2009

Hogback stocks are not ideal for hard-kicking rifles, since they tend to direct recoil to the cheekbone.

Maverick223 · Jun 13, 2009

I strongly suspect that even the wimpy old 458 Win Mag will handle a brown bear.

I suspect you're right. The .458Lott has cheaper brass, will last longer, and will handle both cartridges.

Maverick223 · Jun 13, 2009

Hogback stocks are not ideal for hard-kicking rifles, since they tend to direct recoil to the cheekbone.

I didn't realize that, but it makes sense. I figured that the hogback would handle recoil better due to increased muzzle flip, but I don't recall ever firing one. Thanks for the info. All the more reason to shoulder the American before I commit, and I can get it in the .458Lott (that I don't need).

SaxonPig · Jun 13, 2009

Your attempt to make one rifle do everything will end in frustration. You will wind up with a very short range rifle that is not very well suited at all to 98% of what you plan to use it for. The 458 Lott is way overpowered for bear let alone deer and reduced loads will leave you with a gun that shoots a rainbow trajectory and will be difficult to shoot accurately in the field. With full loads this gun will beat the living snot out of you.

I suggest you give this some more thought.

Maverick223 · Jun 13, 2009

Thanks for the reply SP, the trajectory shouldn't be any worse than a 45-70 should it? That is what I am trying to mimic in a CRF bolt action rifle. No real plans to use full power loads unless I have a chance to use it for it's "intended purpose".

Vern Humphrey · Jun 13, 2009

If you load to duplicate a standard .45-70 load, such as the Federal 1880 fps, 300 grain bullet and zero about 3" high at 100 yards, you'll be about 3" low at 200 yards, which should just about handle all your deer hunting.

JohnKSa · Jun 13, 2009

I plan to reload at about 45-70 velocities (405 @ about 1700fps) and cast my own for target and likely for game as well.

The traditional 45/70 load is a 405gr bullet at about 1300fps.

saturno_v · Jun 13, 2009

I strongly suspect that even the wimpy old 458 Win Mag will handle a brown bear. If you plan on downloading, what is the purpose of rechambering to 458Lott?

So the 458 Win Mag is...."Wimpy"???

You are unreal....

P.S.

By the way there is not all that difference between the 458 Win Mag and the 458 Lott....the former is in the low-mid 5K of muzzle energy, the latter in the high-mid 5K....at most 10% or less of difference....so that makes the 458 WM wimpy and the 458 Lott adequate?? Nonsense....

natman · Jun 13, 2009

Quote:
I strongly suspect that even the wimpy old 458 Win Mag will handle a brown bear. If you plan on downloading, what is the purpose of rechambering to 458Lott?

So the 458 Win Mag is...."Wimpy"???

You are unreal....

P.S.

By the way there is not all that difference between the 458 Win Mag and the 458 Lott....the former is in the low-mid 5K of muzzle energy, the latter in the high-mid 5K....10% or less of difference....so that makes the 458 WM wimpy and the 458 Lott adequate?? Nonsense....

Apparently my attempt at sarcasm was a bit too subtle. No, I do not consider the 458 to be at all "wimpy".

saturno_v · Jun 13, 2009

I strongly suspect that even the wimpy old 458 Win Mag will handle a brown bear. If you plan on downloading, what is the purpose of rechambering to 458Lott?

Natman

I truly apologize....I did not understand!!!! Sorry again.....

On that note, going back to the original poster....maybe the 458 Lott is a bit on the light side for deer!!!

natman · Jun 13, 2009

The .458Lott has cheaper brass, will last longer, and will handle both cartridges.

I agree that the 458 Lott chamber would handle both cartridges.

At Graf & Sons and MidwayUSA 458 Win is the same or slightly cheaper than 458 Lott. How will a 458 Lott last longer?

I still think you would be better off with the smaller case if you plan to download anyway.

Liberty1776 · Jun 13, 2009

I use my .458 Win Mag with cast bullets (lower velocity for deer and am planning on using it for hogs. Works just like the 45-70... bullet doesn't need to expand. It's fun to use it, and I sure the heck aren't getting any shots at elefaunts here in Minnesota...

Al Thompson · Jun 13, 2009

FWIW, a lot (LOL) of hunters think the additional 2-300 FPS of the .458 Lott is important. Back when I was playing with the plain .458, I really liked the Barnes 400 gr X bullet. I could eaisily drive it to 2300 FPS. As I understand it, the Lott version will do that with the 500 (could be wrong) at a lower pressure.

I've fired a hogback .458 (older CZ) and to me (this is very subjective) thought it handled recoil better than my .458 Ruger M77. Hate to say it, but your going to have to see what works for you.

Maverick223 · Jun 13, 2009

First thanks to all for all of the responses...

Vern: That is a good load and is what I am currently using in my 45-70, I may just stick with that only using cast boolits instead.

John: That is a wussified 45-70 load for trapdoors and such...I am referring to a Browning 1885 & Ruger No. 1/3 load.

Saturno: Maybe I should save up a bit more for a 577 T-Rex for Whitetails.

Nat: The Lott brass should outlast the WM brass due to less pressure (to achieve the same velocity); though I don't know how big of a difference it will make. I can always use the WM in the Lott, and IIRC should be able to rechamber the WM to Lott so I don't believe it is a big issue either way. I do want to get the one with the best handling characteristics that handles recoil better.

Liberty: If I do decide to go his route I would love to hear about some of your recipes.

Al: If I were going to the dark continent I would want the Lott, even if the newer WM cartridges were up to snuff, there are no second chances on the big 3 (wouldn't be my 1st choice for the "little two": Lion/Leopard); although at least right now that is not an option. I thought the hogback (Euro Style) stock configuration fit me pretty well, the sights came right up where I wanted them...but I do want to handle both. So you found the hogback design to lessen recoil?

JohnKSa · Jun 13, 2009

John: That is a wussified 45-70 load for trapdoors and such...I am referring to a Browning 1885 & Ruger No. 1/3 load.

You're correct about what guns the loads are intended for, but you've got it sort of backwards in thinking of the trapdoor/traditional loading as wussified if by wussified you mean a reduced loading.

That was the original loading (or at least it's one of the original loadings) and the trapdoors were some of the original rifles it was used in. The hotter loads you're talking about are souped up to take advantage of the strength of modern firearms.

For what it's worth, the original loading is the only one with an industry specification (SAAMI pressure limit). In other words, that load is not a reduced/wussified loading, it's the way the 45/70 was originally loaded and is also still the only 45/70 performance level with an officially recognized industry standard.

The Lott brass should outlast the WM brass due to less pressure (to achieve the same velocity); though I don't know how big of a difference it will make.

At the reduced load level you intend to use, the life of the .458WM cases should be identical to the life of the .458Lott cases.

Maverick223 · Jun 13, 2009

You're correct about what guns the loads are intended for, but you've got it sort of backwards in thinking of the trapdoor/traditional loading as wussified if by wussified you mean a reduced loading.

I know, just not the best loading IMO, and I think either of the cartridges should last a Long long time.

Albert A Rasch · Jun 14, 2009

Fellows,

The 458 Lott is a great cartridge to fool around with. It is more than adequate at reduced loads to take deer and for that matter any game at 98% of the range most game is taken at ie: 100 yards or less.

I have a Ruger #1 in 458WM that I have shot hog with more times than I can remember, of course this was when Cabelas was selling Winchester 510 Soft Points for $21.00 a box. I'm glad I bought a few boxes back in the day!

If you are handloading, pick up some Cast Performance 450ish gr LBTs and follow any of the loads for the 45/70. Some folks recommend poly filler some don't. A few loads later you'll have an accurate load that won't wallop you into tomorrow.

But if you shoot enough, because you are handloading, sooner or later you will learn to position your rifle, hold it right, and flow with the recoil, (Flow?), that you will not even realize that the rifle recoils.

That's me at the SHOT Show with the CZ550 in 500 Jeffery.
Personally, I really liked it, but I liked the Ruger Hawkeye even better. Well... I want them both but for different reasons!

Thanks,
Albert
Albert Shoots the 416 Ruger Magnum and the Hawkeye

db_tanker · Jun 14, 2009

guess you gotta worry about those sabre-tooth deer in your area?

As for what you are wanting to do with the handloading, you will be fine.

Buy plenty of 3031, RL-7, 4198 and TrailBoss. Those 4 powders will do everything you need to do.

D

Maverick223 · Jun 14, 2009

Al A. Rasch said:
The 458 Lott is a great cartridge to fool around with. It is more than adequate at reduced loads to take deer and for that matter any game at 98% of the range most game is taken at ie: 100 yards or less.

Thanks for the bit of encouragement, that is exactly what I was thinking.

But if you shoot enough, because you are handloading, sooner or later you will learn to position your rifle, hold it right, and flow with the recoil

I have to admit that I haven't shot a .458Lott, but I have shot just about everything else, including but not limited to .458WM, .416Rigby, .375H&H, et al. I didn't find any of the above punishing, though the .458WM wasn't something I would want to shoot all day. The 45-70 I find therapeutic.

I liked the Ruger Hawkeye even better.

Unfortunately a M77 is not in the budget, but they do handle well, IIRC the .416Rigby I fired was chambered in a M77. Also, I am pretty set on the .458 diameter bullet (of some variation) because I want to cast my own, and will be able to use the same equipment for casting 45-70, but I am open to all suggestions in that caliber.

Maverick223 · Jun 14, 2009

guess you gotta worry about those sabre-tooth deer in your area?

As for what you are wanting to do with the handloading, you will be fine.

Buy plenty of 3031, RL-7, 4198 and TrailBoss. Those 4 powders will do everything you need to do.

Vicious little beasts

Thanks for the info...do you have any special recipes that you would like to share?

Uncle Mike · Jun 14, 2009

Isn't this simply the greatest sport, one does not have to 'reason' concerning adequateness of involved items. Nor does one have to answer to conduct befitting a sportsman, we can use, hunt with whatever racks our actions!

I should imagine that the .458Lott is an excellent round and you should have fun handloading for such.

But to take a chance on wounding a vicious beast like a deer with such an inadequate caliber is atrocious at least. LMAO!

For real... that IS therapy!

Maverick223 · Jun 14, 2009

But to take a chance on wounding a vicious beast like a deer with such an inadequate caliber is atrocious at least. LMAO!

You'd not be laughing if you had ever bitten by one...with their deadly sharp fangs. :neener:

.458 Lott for Deer?

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