CCW Permit Holder Comes to the Aid of a Store Manager

Yeah. What if the shoplifter had been an alien Luncheater from the planet Zolgarsh and had been armed with a quantum-phase nuclear transmogrifier? And the store had been a front for smuggling Venusian smorfs?

Wouldn't that just change everything?

The shooter, and manager, behaved recklessly in persuing a situation that neither of them had any business persuing. Let the dirtbag get away with $5 in meat, call the cops, fill out a statement, go on with life.

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This is your opinion and I would guess you have never been in a situation like the store manager and good guy were in. If no one attempts to stop the BG crime will continue to increase and you will not be able go on with life locked in you house and afraid to go out in public. Believe it or not we have many places in America where very large portions of the cities are controlled by the bad guys. How did this happen? The residents did not fight back.....Today you can read stories about "Night Out On Crime", "Crime Watch", and "COP (Citizens on patrol)" where the residents and business owners are attempting to take their neighborhoods back from the BG's. The City of Riviera Beach Florida has started such programs in an attempt to take back their city from the BG's. The state has a "Gang Task Force" that has greatly reduced gang related crime and in time will stamp out all gang crimes.

Store robberies , home invasions and muggings have been greatly reduced in my state, Florida, after new laws were recently enacted allowing people to use deadly force to protect themselves and their property.

IMO, people with attitudes such as yours sends the wrong message to the bad guys. It is a proven fact in my area that the convenience stores that made no effort to stop shop lifting and grab and run crime, other than calling the police, were robbed more often. The stores that did stop or attempt to stop the BG's experienced fewer robberies. One store has had no attempts in the last 6 or 7 months since the shop owner shot and wounded a robber.

Home invasions were on the increase in all neighborhoods until the Castle Law was approved allowing you the right to defend yourself, family and property with deadly force. Home invasions are now seldom committed other than by gangs against other gangs.

I have had the experience of being robbed by an armed gunman and if I had not fought back I am sure I would have been killed. I have carried a CCW ever since.

This issue seems pretty straightforward.

The CCW permit holder was in the parking lot when this happened. There was no way he could have known that the manager was trying to obtain a license plate number, or that the perpetrator had just stolen some groceries.

What he saw was someone trying to run down an unarmed person with a car.

That justifies the use of deadly force.

Moreover, he repeatedly told the driver to stop and get out of the car before shooting.

What's debatable about this?

What's debatable about this?

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Nothing.

What happened, happened.

The debate (and I think it's a useful one) has to do with the strategies and tactics WE might employ if faced with a similar situation - either as a store employee or an innocent bystander with a CCW.

Do we risk injury or the use of deadly force to stop a shoplifter?

Not me.

Do we risk injury or the use of deadly force when defending against criminal violence?

Absolutely.

Do we risk injury or the use of deadly force to stop a shoplifter?

Not me.

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Of course that's not what happened here. The CCW didn't know the perp was shoplifting. He only knew she was in the process of murdering another woman.

And the CCWer? Ok, so someone is stealing meat from the supermarket and they bust into action mode? Pulling a gun out over $4.95? This person should have their permit revoked. If them and the manager did not run out after the shoplifter (who did nothing to them) everyone would be safe and sound today.

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Did you not read the whole story?

The criminal shoplifter used her automobile as a weapon.

A very deadly weapon.

And the CCWer? Ok, so someone is stealing meat from the supermarket and they bust into action mode? Pulling a gun out over $4.95? This person should have their permit revoked. If them and the manager did not run out after the shoplifter (who did nothing to them) everyone would be safe and sound today

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The bad guy, who did nothing to them!!! The bad guy illegally took the stores products that are under the care of the employees, a crime no matter what the value was.

The CCW carrier had no way of knowing that the bad guy had illegally taken the store's products. As far as he is aware, the theft is utterly irrelevant. He went to the defense of someone who any rational person would conclude was about to become the victim of vehicular homicide.

Hello friends and neighbors// Justifiable shooting ; shoplifter escalated crime after using car as weapon; should be charged accordingly .


To bad she will only be charged with shoplifting. That could present a problem for future involvement by CCW in this type of shooting.

Hope everything works out well for both good guys.

THE DARK KNIGHT said:

And the CCWer? Ok, so someone is stealing meat from the supermarket and they bust into action mode? Pulling a gun out over $4.95? This person should have their permit revoked.

CCW is about saving yourself, family, or others from danger, not protecting some meat from the supermarket.

"You are entitled to defend yourself or someone else if you think that your life is in danger or that you are in danger of serious physical injury," Kanatzer told KMBC's Jim Flink. "You have to reasonably believe that either you or another individual is in danger of losing their life. This particular individual had all the reason to believe that based upon the facts he was observing."

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And your own quote above disproves your point.

The CCW holder wasn't shooting the suspect over some stolen meat. He was shooting her to prevent them from running over the store manager with their car; protecting the life of an innocent.

Good shoot.

The original offense started off as a stealing. but when the suspect used her automobile as a weapon it changed to an armed robbery. In the state of Mo. If force is used to prevent the owner of stolen property from recovering that property the offense then becomes a robbery. However since the offense occurred in Jackson County the suspect will probably only be charged with careless driving. Retired LE

I worked in retail during my college years and was involved in alot of shoplifting incidents. One of our secret shoppers got a gun put in his face and then pistol whipped in the paring lot for trying to stop a guy from stealing a chainsaw. I decided that I wasnt about to get knifed for trying to tail someone stealing a dvd.


I know this is High Road and everyone agrees that the guy was justified in using his deadly force (pistol) against the womans deadly force (car). When I see these cases discussed I cant help but think that the ACLU and left wing DA's dont see it in the same light. There is no way that I would have fired my weapon.

All of the security management and retail security classes I have taken say that your right to confront a shoplifter ends at the door. In THIS state, you are not allowed to use force to detain or pursue a fleeing shoplifter. (But I hear stories of store employees doing it all the time.)

I am one who is VERY leery of jumping in to defend third parties. I mean, the kid is actually right. How did the citizen know that the driver wasn't the victim? But I wasn't there, it may have been very obvious who was the victim and who was the criminal.

I DO NOT like the publicity this will bring Utah non-resident permit holders.

+1 on it ending at the door. At Home Depot our loss prevention associate/management WILL be terminated if they pursue someone out into the parking lot. To many people have been seriously injured trying to stop someone for a 20.00 socket set.

hope a cupple of you arnt in the lot if someone tries to run me over.

thats part of the reason my steak costs dubble what it should, i gotta cover the cost of scum that steels theirs and nobody does anything.

the only nightmare he will have is the inevitable lawsuit that could have been avoided if he had shot a little higher.

to think its ok for someone to take your stuff and run over you with a car if you try to stop them is insaine. :banghead: yes it did belong to sombody.

exactly why he ccw's, only he used it for someone elses threat of life instead of his own. very big of him and rare in todays world.

he did what my pappy taught me was one of the first rules.
DO WHAT IS RIGHT

It has probably already been said in this thread, if it wasn't, it's been said in many others like it.

I don't carry to protect you and your family. I carry to protect me and mine. My family won't be in good shape if I got to jail for negligent homicide or sued out of existence for wrongful death. If you start KILLING PEOPLE in defense of a third party. you better not be GUESSING what's going on. You must absolutely KNOW. If you come into the middle of a situation that is already going on, and you start shooting people, you are going to jail. I have a VERY short list of people in this world I will jump in to save. I have family members who are not on that list because they have a history of making bad life decisions. So, NO, I will absolutely not do that to save your life. Glad we understand each other.

If you don't like the price of beef, raise your own.

+1 on it ending at the door. At Home Depot our loss prevention associate/management WILL be terminated if they pursue someone out into the parking lot. To many people have been seriously injured trying to stop someone for a 20.00 socket set.

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And you just told the whole world that if you are a shoplifter go to Home Depot they won't go beyond the front door to stop you. But Home Depot will not attempt to reduce shoplifting by stopping the shoplifter but will raise the cost of their products to overcome their loses. Why? Because it is easier to raise the prices than to pay the legal costs to defend themselves in a possible law suite. IMO a slap to their customers face. Actually they need to save money to defend themselves on law suites from the injuries to customers by their employees that happen within the store .

It's not like it was a secret to anyone who has worked retail for any chain store in America and actually read their LP policies.

Im in TOTAL agreement with Dark Night!

The shooter may be in the legal right, but ending someone's life over that incident is sad.

The facts, as reported, are that the idiot managaer ran after someone stealing MEAT!

He got hit and could have died.

The shooter didnt pull his gun till after she hit the manager and only shot after she refused his order to get out of the car.

Luckly hes a bad shot and she lived.

Some of you guys are riduculous. So just because some of us wouldnt chase down someone stealing meat, you think we want everyone to get away with anything?

What if the lady would have pulled a gun outside and shot the manager chasing her?

If someone steals meat, ill calmly walk outside and try to get a plate number. Hopefully that will aid the cops in making an apprehension.

I want to live, and to leave my family without a father or husband becuase im am trying to stop a shoplifter who may possibly have a gun is foolish.

THE MANAGER WAS TRYING TO GET THE THEIF'S PLATE NUMBER.

Sorry to yell, but so very many of you seem to be having trouble grasping this concept. The manager was not chasing anyone.

The CCW holder was morally justified in shooting the woman for attempting to harm the store employee. I appalud his action and the decision of the local authorities not to charge the CCW holder with any crime. However, I would not have taken the action that the permit holder did. Too much potential for being sued. I would not want to lose my house over it. I concede the permit holder is a better man than me.

THE MANAGER WAS TRYING TO GET THE THIEF'S PLATE NUMBER.

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Yes - and apparently standing in front of the shoplifter's car to do so, perhaps to block their escape.

A phenomenally BAD idea that could have got her injured or killed, and an otherwise uninvolved bystander having to deal with the aftermath of a shoot that need never have happened.

The point isn't to criticize the man who shot the violent assailant, or to blame the victim for that assailant's actions.

The point is to avoid - whenever possible - unnecessarily escalating a situation to that level in the first place.

He who does not punish evil commands it to be done

- Leonardo da Vinci

She Got what she deserved CASE CLOSED