I'm Rethinking Mouseguns.

I'm not quite sure how to respond to that.

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depending upon the state, that could be 100% legal. in florida, if you were in the bank, and a guy was robbing it with a shotgun, it would be 100% legal for you to shoot the robber in the back of the head without him even being aware of your presence.

I think it might be good to get something bigger than a .32 for "lazy carry" as I affectionately call it.

Don't go around carrying to stop bank robberies. They're money is insured. Only shoot if you, or another is obviously, absolutely about to get hurt.

Yeah, I have owned and carried .32, .380. j-frame .38 and .357s.

The first two were unreliable and the last two were not (for me) shootable to an accurate degree. All are long gone.

I am not a big boy...50+ years old, 5'9" and 150 lbs. But I conceal, carry and shoot (reasonably well) a 4" 1911 or a 4" N-frame.

I still own a .380 and two 9mms. I just don't carry them.

My choice, and it may not be yours. That is fine.

I always use the bank's drive-thru teller.






With an M&P 340 next to me. It's a wee bit more powerful than the P32 I had.

With an M&P 340 next to me.

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Excellent choice. Light enough for the pocket robust enough for .357 and those wonderful XS night sites.

In such a robbery, you'd be better off with the mouse gun. I'd hate to think you might be tempted to do something with a better handgun caliber. A shotgun is nothing to go against with a handgun. A torso hit with a .357 might work, but that would be only if you got a clear clean shot or had cover from a good distance. In some states, if you had that much distance, you might not be justified in shooting.

Technically you're not supposed to be carrying in a bank

Technically you're not supposed to be carrying in a bank

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Says who? Post office, no-no. But banks are a private business. They can post no weapons signs, but that doesn't necessarily carry the weight of law.

Technically you're not supposed to be carrying in a bank.

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That's not true in AL. Here the only locations forbidden by state law are political events and schools if you intend harm. The feds restrict Post Offices and building owners can restrict by posting signs and or providing security to prevent.

I also agree that unless I'm sure there is an imminent threat I will not draw my weapon. That said, if the BG has a gun he has shown intent.

Inside most branch banks (I'm thinking 15 yards) a shotgun will have a pattern no larger than a softball. The BG still has to be a pretty good shot. I will seek cover and make my choices as the scene unfolds.

And shot placement is king. Shooting under stress is difficult at best, you'd better have some great training and practice under your belt if you expect to perform in real gun fights.

I also agree that unless I'm sure there is an imminent threat I will not draw my weapon. That said, if the BG has a gun he has shown intent.

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I'm not sure I'd agree with that logic and good luck convincing a judge and jury of that...you have a gun, does that mean you have intent?

At any rate, I'd be very careful how I played that scenario...even if by some means you got the drop on him and put your lead on target and he somehow missed you with his shotgun, its very likely he would be hitting someone else inside the bank.

So, drawing a "mouse gun" and going up against a desperate man with a shotgun? In my home, absolutely. Inside a crowded bank where the guy most likely will get a handful/sackful of money and run only to be picked up by the police a week later, probably not.

Mouse guns.... I like 'em.

Why? Because there's almost no reason at all not to carry one. And by that, I mean that no matter how you dress, you can probably conceal at least one Kel-tec, NAA mini, or something of the like. For that matter, if you're fat enough, or at least wear a hat, you could probably conceal one while out at a nude beach.
Can't say that for you Glock or 1911.

Remember too, that us "civilians" carry a gun for defense, and not to go storming hills or bunkers. And even little bullets can cause the bad guys to want to find another victim.


So, no, I'm not gonna retire my mouse guns any time soon.


J.C.

Maj.Striker
I think most judges and jury members can distinguish 'intent' between a bank robber with a shotgun demanding money and a CCW permitted citizen protecting lives. Having a gun on your person is not the same as using one to commit a felony. That's why many states have special laws covering using a gun in the committing of a crime.

Also I didn't say I would automatically open fire but rather evaluate the situation. If I felt that he was going to walk away without hurting anyone, good riddance. But I wouldn't feel anymore in danger from a shotgun than from a 9mm for example. Some people feel that a shotgun is some sort of magic killing machine. Think back to when Vice Pres. Cheney shot his friend in the face. The man was old and shot at fairly close range and was out of the hospital in less than a week.

My point was that any weapon well used is just as likely to kill or injure as any other. The most often used assassin's weapon is the 22lr. A mouse gun round to the ear, eye, or nose will kill as well as a shotgun blast.

But I never want to be in that situation, Lord willing none of us will.

But I wouldn't feel anymore in danger from a shotgun than from a 9mm for example.

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Yeah, ok.

Yeah, ok.

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Unless the shotgun is firing slugs, the 9mm has the potential to kill far more people at one time, and at a farther distance. Especially if the ammo is hardball.


J.C.

....Think back to when Vice Pres. Cheney shot his friend in the face. The man was old and shot at fairly close range and was out of the hospital in less than a week....

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Yes, and he obviously caught the edge of the pattern from a bird-choked gun.
I can guarantee you that if I shoot someone with a shotgun with any load of #4 or larger, at close range, they's gonna be phucked up......

PB:

Respectfully I have to think you lack appreciation for the damage offered by a shotgun round, especially when loaded with proper ammunition..

I doubt seriously any respectful bank robber is going to have his shotgun loaded with birdshot, and if you don't think a shotgun loaded with buckshot deserves more respect than a 9mm pistol I suggest you haven't had the opportunity to observe what happens with a full load of 00 or say #4 buckshot is fired at a target from up close and personal.

I LOVE the 9MM pistol, and in fact have 7-8 of them. But I have two 12ga. pump shotguns, loaded with #4 buckshot, and I assure you IF the situation ever comes up and I need to defend myself AND have a choice to what to defend myself with, it'll be one of the darn shotguns, I guarantee you that.

No offense,

Jesse

I got a lot of healthy respect for any shotgun after seeing what they can do.
I related this story some time back on another thread but here it is again.
We were up at our deer lease a few years ago for some dove hunting and work to get the place ready for deer season.
That morning two of the guys took off down the ranch road to get in some dove hunting and they had not been gone but maybe a minute when I heard two quick shotgun blasts.
They came back right away for the truck.
One of the guys was armed with an old Ithaca model 37 pump 20 gauge with low base number 8 shot in it when two feral hogs ran right past them.
He got off two quick shots at about twenty feet and killed BOTH hogs dead as a hammer with well aimed and timed head shots.
Hogs are a lot tougher than any man that has ever been born.
None the less they were dead on the spot.
Shotgun blasts at close range are quite deadly even with bird shot.

I bought in the distance past .22's and .25's for pocket carry. Bought a Kel-Tec .32 when they were first introduced then traded up to the Kel-Tec "P3AT" (.380) when they first came out. I don't own any of them anymore.

My smallest gun these days in both size and caliber is a j-frame .38. For me, it wasn't the tales of mouse guns being unreliable (mine were fine) and it wasn't that they couldn't be shot accurately (paper plates at 7 yards: check). For me it was simple ballistics. I'm no expert, not claiming to be, and never witnessed an actual shooting or even seen a gunshot wound in person - hope not to from any angle - I just feel more comfortable with a treasury load or something similar than anything that can be achieved in anything .380 or smaller.

Even a BB gun is threatening when presented in an offensive manner, but if I ever need to use my carry gun I will need it to STOP some type of offensive attack, not scare someone into giving up their wallet, and prefer a bigger, heavier bullet to attempt that.

I don't try to find fault with anyone's choice for a carry gun, and I do believe that "the small one you have on you is better than the big one you left home". Also nothing of decent power is more easily carried than a KT .380 in my experience. I just decided for myself that my bottom is the .38 and I do what I need to do to have it with me. It's not really that much heavier for pocket carry (although admittedly larger). For me it's a j-frame in my pocket or an auto IWB.

Above is all just my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it. (Maybe not even that much.)

Jamie C. said:

Unless the shotgun is firing slugs, the 9mm has the potential to kill far more people at one time, and at a farther distance. Especially if the ammo is hardball.

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I am really impressed how you rationalized this.

I go 38+p or 9mm as minimum. Ultralight titanium snubby, or a keltec. My Glocks are just too big in Fl, as I like to dress light. Next stop is that new Baretta px4 with 13 rounds of 9mm, to replace my G23. I feel that I would rather have a couple extra rounds than go for the 40 cal again. My seacamp sit's alone these days, many a time it was dressed and ready to go out on the town, but alas, it was too small in 32 to comfort my heart. 45 is the way to go if possible, it sleeps next to me at night, the wife and dog on the other side.

OP, I know how you feel. I was at the park yesterday (Spokane) and 4 gang bangers walked by.They were trailing another gang member from another gang. I know..situational awareness let me down. I felt my hip....LCP. Felt like I had a squirt gun.

I am really impressed how you rationalized this.

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There's no rationalizing involved; I've just fired a lot of both 9mm and 12 ga. in quite a lot of different loadings, at quite a lot of different targets, at varying ranges, and know what both will or will not do.

Can you say the same?


J.C.

For a casual night out I would think the P32 is OK as a primary gun but I like to think of it as a backup. I would feel under gunned with it during a bank robbery though. Next time you go to a bank robbery, bring something bigger.

I want to see if this makes sense.

1 00 buck shot = about 3.4 grams
1 gram = 15.43236 grains
So 3.4 x 15.43236 = 52.470024 grains (Wikipedia lists it at 53.8 take your pick)

Velocity on a 3" 12ga goes up to about 1330 fps.

Closest equivalent hand gun round.
32 Automatic 55grains Glaser Safety Slug 1200 fps

So if penetration depth is key in causing death, each pellet is no more likely to kill you than the 32 automatic slug. And therefore the mouse gun is just as likely to lead to death as the 12ga shotgun. You may or may not get hit by more projectiles but each one will penetrate to approx the same depth.

YES.