Light and Fast .40 s&w

ballistic pressure waves have been shown capable of breaking bones [MYR88].

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Not in handguns they haven't.

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Actually the pressure of a handgun round can break bones.
I've seen it first hand.

About nine years ago I X-rayed a woman who committed suicide by shooting herself in the head with a .38 revolver.
The bullet entered the right side of the skull and traveled through the brain toward the left side but failed to exit the skull.
Not only was the skull fractured at the entry site but it was also shattered at the top and base of the skull.
The right orbit was blown out as well even though it too was not in the path of the bullet at all.
When I moved the patient's head it felt like a sack of broken glass.
The skull was so shattered that it was difficult to determine which side was the face (the head was bagged by the police to preserve evidence).
So even though the bullet traveled from the right temple toward the left temple, it totally shattered the skull in all directions.

Now I'm not saying that a bullet in the chest is going to damage a person's brain (excluding a possible embolism from the intermittent disruption of blood-flow to the brain), but I don't believe that the pressure from a handgun round is something to be totally dismissed.
If a boxer can damage a kidney just from a well landed punch to the kidney area (with no penetration or expansion at all) I can believe that the pressure from a bullet passing just a hair's width by the kidney would have some kind of effect, however mild.

Don't get me wrong....I'm a firm believer in shot placement, penetration, expansion, and permanent wound channel.
But I'm certain that energy does factor in as well.

So even though the bullet traveled from the right temple toward the left temple, it totally shattered the skull in all directions.

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Was it a contact shot?

No one actually witnessed the lady pulling the trigger, but on the radiograph you can clearly see the path of the bullet....

It traveled from the right temple to to the left side of the skull and did not exit the left side of the skull.

Ok, lets drag this one back into the realm of reality.

First off, there is not a SIGNIFICANT difference in "Stopping Power" between the various weights of .40S&W (just like there's not really a SIGNIFICANT difference between most common handgun calibers).

There is no "magic bullet weight" that is going to turn .40S&W into full house 10mm.

So you really have two options:

1. If you shot A LOT; buy JHPs that are the same weight as whatever FMJ's you're buying in bulk.
2. If you shoot A LITTLE; buy a couple boxes of each weight, go to the range and stick with the weight you find you shoot best with (some guns will like one weight over another).

mordechaianiliewicz said:

I thought that the idea behind .40 S&W was to replicate .45 ACP performance (or close) but get a much higher amount of ammo than is conventionally possible. I would much rather have the heavier weighted bullet.

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No, the idea of the .40S&W was to replicate the 10mm "FBI Load" in a smaller case so they could use a 9mm sized frame so it would be better for shooters with smaller hands (that and the size of the 10mm case was a waste for the weaker FBI load). Increased magazine capacity was a non issue since the same length mag is going to hold the same number of rounds of either 10mm or .40 since they're both the same diameter.

The point of 10mm was to deliver "magnum power" in a service auto. The problem with 10mm is it required bigger heavier guns that recoiled much heavier than many smaller, weaker (read: female) FBI agents could handle ... so they loaded the 10mm weaker so that the recoil would be less of a problem ... Smith & Wesson saw the opportunity to make a new caliber based on the weaker 10mm FBI load so they shortened the case and the .40S&W was born.


One after thought ... if you have a first generation .40 Glock stay away from the 180gr because it was the combination of the 180gr (with very full cases so the slightest bullet setback from loading and unloading the gun would cause severe spikes in case pressure) mixed with the first gen .40 Glock barrels having unsupported chambers causing the infamous Glock kBs!

supposedly the 135 grain has documented more one shot kills than the heavier bullets in the 40SW.

So, you are comparing the impact energy at fifty yards of an M4 with M855/SS109 to a hotrodded, possibly inflated 10mm at the muzzle? that seems awfully optimistic to me, not to mention that the almighty ten has a little more recoil than many shooters are comfortable with, which is a big part of the reason it hasn't been a major commercial success.

And the M4 still has about 300 foot pounds more energy even with that unfair comparison, I mean, generally someone you have to shoot at fifty yards isn't going to allow you to walk up and deliver a shot at five paces with your pistol. The M4 is also getting that energy almost purely with velocity, since it's got such a light bullet, hell even at 200 yards it has nearly as much energy as that hopeful 10mm load at the muzzle.

I still think that in order to get speeds that can cause any significant wounding out of a handgun, you either need to reduce projectile weight well into the arena of diminishing returns, pump the recoil level up with something like the 9x25 Dillon and little bullets, or both.

supposedly the 135 grain has documented more one shot kills than the heavier bullets in the 40SW.

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Are there numbers to backup this claim?

The 135s are also the most erratically performing weight class in .40.

davezander said:

supposedly the 135 grain has documented more one shot kills than the heavier bullets in the 40SW.

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Considering the fact that its the least used weight, I highly doubt that.

The problem with 10mm is it required bigger heavier guns that recoiled much heavier than many smaller, weaker (read: female) FBI agents could handle ... so they loaded the 10mm weaker so that the recoil would be less of a problem ...

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Completely false. The FBI load of the 10mm Automatic cartridge was a 180gr JHP at 980fps. This is what was tested during the infamous 1986 trials and the load that marginally beat the .45 ACP in all tests. The FBI never ever tested or issues full power original Norma spec 10mm Automatic ammunition. Ever. The only load they ever used was the standard 180gr JHP at 980fps. The "heavy recoil" statement is an internet myth that simply won't die.

The forthcoming of the .40 S&W was politics and money. The FBI was training their agents to prep the trigger. This wore the firing system faster and the FBI told S&W their guns needed to be changed. S&W told the FBI to train their agents properly. The FBI got pissed and canceled the contract of the S&W guns. During this time S&W and Winchester began developing a shorter 10mm caliber cartridge that duplicated the FBI ballistics of the 10mm Automatic but in a smaller frame gun. They named it the .40 S&W. S&W knew it was a win for them as far as cartridge selection goes based on previous business with the FBI. If the FBI wasn't going to buy S&W guns, then they were going to use a cartridge with the S&W name on it and they knew the FBI couldn't refuse it because it met the ballistic requirements, price point, and no other 10mm guns were offered in the new contract bid as S&W was the only major player that could meet the demands and they held out from the gun contract. Winchester paid S&W royalties for the first few years on the .40 S&W ammo sold to to the FBI by Winchester. S&W got the last laugh at the FBI in that circus. Winchester jacked the price up on the ammo for the FBI enough to give S&W the same profit they would if they had filled the gun contract for the 10mm. Winchester got their standard cut, the "over-profit" went to S&W as a favor.

That is the real and true history of the 10mm/.40 FBI/S&W relationship as told by an FBI agent who was there and personally handloaded the test ammo for the 10mm Automatic himself because Norma couldn't get ammo in time for the test. One of the stipulations was recoil could be no more than standard .45 ACP GI ball ammunition. The 10mm 180gr JHP at 980fps does not exceed that. Another reason why the "heavy recoil" statement of the 10mm/FBI history is false. If the 10mm recoiled more than the .45 ACP in a 1911, it would be immediately disqualified from the trials.

BTW, a light JHP in teh .40 is OK if you want extremely limited penetration, like sub 12 inches. I used to load the .40 135gr Nosler JHP in my ammunition catalog to 1430fps and sold a lot of it. Like I said, if you like limited penetration it's the way to go.