Dog eat Dog

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ConstitutionCowboy said:
Those flat screens they're stealing ... How does one prepare such a thing for dinner? Or do you just watch the food commercials and rub your belly and say, "Man, that was good!"?

Woody
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Lol. Makes for a unique coffee table to place their candles on when their fellow thugs come over to butcher the alpacas.
 
Katrina showed Americans how fast things will collapse, there were even cops caught looting. Civilization breaks down quickly and more so in highly populated areas where folks have lost their ability to survive due to lack of resources or lack of knowledge coupled with the chaos. Natural disasters can come at any time and things like earthquakes can render your best plans worthless if your supplies and safe harbor are destroyed.
I am convinced that more rural settings will be better places to be in such disasters.
 
I believe that's what they mean by "moral relativism". I also believe that's a B.S. excuse to do what's wrong.
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If you don't mind my asking what is the source of your universal moral code?

Let me say again, because I have done so like a broken record, in the event of a real disaster in your area, you will have a great many issues which will need to be dealt with. Protecting your property from theft is more than likely going to be way down the list - such as on the last page of your list. It's possible you could live through ten disasters and never see a single looter.

So if your preparations for a disaster are totally focused on keeping roving bands of people from stealing things from you, then you are either an idiot, or you need to move - you live in a bad neighborhood.

Many of you who keep touting the "lessons of Katrina" or bringing it up every time there is a disaster - I suspect you were watching it on TV. The huge, overwhelming majority of GNO area Katrina survivors never laid eyes on a looter, or an agent of the government coming to seize their guns. I wish some of you could have swapped places with me and lived it here at my house, but then you would be sorely disappointed that there was no opportunity to shoot looters, and more than likely I would have been disappointed because you wouldn't have gotten any fallen trees cleared out of the yard because it's hard to do that kind of work while vigilantly watching out for roaming thugs, gun in hand.

There was plenty of opportunity to help others, but many of you would have missed out on that, because you have the same mindset as the looters - every man for himself! I lost a lot of personal property in the days after Katrina because I personally took it down the street to a church and handed it to people who had lost everything they owned including their homes and had no place to go, and no clothes to wear even.

If your reaction to any disaster scenario is to crawl in your bunker with a gun and treat everyone as though they are out to get you or steal your precious belongings, then you are not on the high road, my friends.
 
Zip7- You make a good well thought out point and you are absolutley right. We would be very busy taking care of your family, neighbors and friends to worry about looters stealing TV's 10 miles away. In a good neighborhood when your clearing that tree you probably have 1 or 2 neighbors helping you and you helping them next. That's the kind of place I live and I know my Neighbors would be there for me and mine and they know I'm there for them.
The point though totally passes over your head. If you take the films from the early 60's in LA, the many other politacal, sporting events, New Orleans and the 92 riots in LA and splice them together you couldn't tell when one stopped and another started. Compaired to the events in Haiti and Chile it's the same.
When people who have not hit the bad times are dropped into a chaotic situation they drop into a lets take it attitude. Taking food and supplies from a closed store which you have no money to buy anyway is one thing, but taking Big screen TVs and shopping carts full of toilet paper just doesn't make since.
I can be pretty brutal myself if necessary but I hope that an emergency wouldn't drop me back 1K years and make me a vicious Thug. After the riots and the fatique, You wake up are you back to human behavor or continue acting out and taking more than you need and destroying everthing else.
That is not what I would do, After the cities are destroyed and the police infrastruction has totally broke down The thug's will head for the area's not destroyed and your's will come to mind. I hope after all your judgemental BS You are prepared to defend or die. Hell even I with all this bad mindset knows you don't need to bunker down if the threat is not there.
 
Many of you who keep touting the "lessons of Katrina" or bringing it up every time there is a disaster - I suspect you were watching it on TV. The huge, overwhelming majority of GNO area Katrina survivors never laid eyes on a looter, or an agent of the government coming to seize their guns.
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That really has nothing to do with anything. Whether or not it was widespread doesn't matter. It happened.

That it happened in isolated areas doesn't change the fact that it happened, and one of the things people need to prepare for in an emergency is being in one of those small areas impacted by things like this.

There's a good chance none of those preparations will be needed, but that doesn't mean that making the preparations anyway is a bad idea. Preparation for a disaster should include all kinds of things that probably wont' be needed. That's just good planning.

The odds of having your house burn down are very low. Does that mean buying insurance is dumb?
 
The people pushed into the chaos of the Dome probably don't share your view of what happened. You both are pointing out what I believe is the greatness and resilience of our society, self reliance and the get it done attitude will be what ultimately saves our country. The opposite is true with the thugs that took it upon themselves to throw off any morals and revert to the dog eat dog mentality, this all happened in the same town.
 
Zip7 stated;
So if your preparations for a disaster are totally focused on keeping roving bands of people from stealing things from you, then you are either an idiot, or you need to move - you live in a bad neighborhood.
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A VERY MANY decent law-abideing people CAN NOT JUST MOVE out of a bad neighborhood ---- maybe you have the money to , tens of thousands DO NOT.

And to your statement
then you are either an idiot
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---- I do find that distastefull !!!! I live less then a 35 minute drive from Chicago ---- ever hear of automobiles and cell phones ??? There are Packs of allied Gangbangers who can get a "posse" up , load 3 or 4 cars with themselves , and be outside my "Mayberry" town in way less then a hour. Now Chicago {OVER THREE MILLION people } , Rockford IL { 200,000} at least , Milwaukee Wis{pop. 600,000 } , Kenosha Wis. {pop 100,000} and AT LEAST another 1-2 MILLION people ALL WITHIN A HOUR FROM MY HOUSE !!!! Do the math --- almost SIX MILLION people , say 5 % are "Bad" that is 300,000 potential threats all within a hour of where I live !!!!!

Now I ask --- am I a "idiot" or maybe I should just move to a better neighborhood !!!!
 
The people pushed into the chaos of the Dome
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No one was pushed into that. Every day leading up to the storm's arrival, every TV station and radio station was covering the storm non stop and they all repeated every ten minutes - DO NOT COME TO THE DOME. They didn't have any shelters set up in the city, because it's impossible to guess which area of the city might not flood.

They told people over and over again specifically do not wait until the last minute and run to the superdome. They told people that refused to evac to get in the attic and have an ax handy to chop through your roof. So anyone who was caught totally by surprise by any of that was just plain stupid or had been lulled into a false sense of security from not having been affected in past storms.
 
Perhaps pushed was a bad choice, the fact remains that those who had no clue and lacked simple skills and preparation suffered immensely for it and then blamed others for their condition. I am in agreement with you but am trying to point out that the condition existed and persists today in our entitlement society and it will manifest itself when ever those who believe they are entitled are stripped of their government protective cloak.
Haiti's problem stems from the same mentality in that the people have been given what amounts to sustenance living by crooked leaders who want a submissive populace.
 
They told people over and over again specifically do not wait until the last minute and run to the superdome. They told people that refused to evac to get in the attic and have an ax handy to chop through your roof. So anyone who was caught totally by surprise by any of that was just plain stupid or had been lulled into a false sense of security from not having been affected in past storms.
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And again, you are arguing something that doesn't matter.

Your very argument proves your point wrong. There are always people who do the wrong thing, who do not prepare, who wait for someone to take care of them, and who may very well turn to violence when they don't get what they expect.

Yet in the same thread you tell us that we are worried about nothing since it's unlikely to happen?

Maybe I'm missing what your point is.
 
I live less then a 35 minute drive from Chicago ---- ever hear of automobiles and cell phones ??? There are Packs of allied Gangbangers who can get a "posse" up , load 3 or 4 cars with themselves , and be outside my "Mayberry" town in way less then a hour.
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I live that close to downtown New Orleans, and closer than that to some rather unsavory neighborhoods. We were under the same conditions less the localized flooding they had in the city. Huge majority of GNO was high and dry through the entire thing. We were out of power for a month. No cell phones worked. The police were stretched past the limit with rescue operations, yet I was at a church, unarmed, unloading trucks right on the side of a major highway. People all over. I suppose some gang bangers could have had sat phones, and coordinated an attack to loot the water, food and diapers we were giving away, but it never occured to me that would happen. The Russians or Al Qaeda could have chosen that very moment to attack as well. While I was down at the church, someone could have been stealing my stuff at home. BUT, I've got to admit - my first thought after the storm was "what can I do to help?" And in some twisted turn of events, it would appear that the way I handled it was not very "high road" after all. The "high road" thing to do apparently would be to go commando and place a higher value on defending my possessions than on helping people who no longer had any possessions.

I had my 13 year old son with me the whole time, so should I now feel bad for showing him the wrong set of values?
 
And in some twisted turn of events, it would appear that the way I handled it was not very "high road" after all. The "high road" thing to do apparently would be to go commando and place a higher value on defending my possessions than on helping people who no longer had any possessions.
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Not sure where you are getting that. I've seen no one that has said trying to help is a bad thing.

But, acting like bad things never happen is pretty naive too.

So, proper preparation should include MANY things; a way to take care of yourself and your family, a way to help others safely, and a way to protect against possible crime.

I can't for the life of me understand why you think doing all of that is a bad idea.
 
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Not sure where you are getting that. I've seen no one that has said trying to help is a bad thing.

But, acting like bad things never happen is pretty naive too.

So, proper preparation should include MANY things; a way to take care of yourself and your family. a way to help others safely and a way to protect against possible crime.

I can't for the life of me understand why you think doing all of that is a bad idea.
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I don't think that doing all of that is bad, I am just pointing out that for most of the people on these forums, defending your property against thieves and roving mobs of looters in the aftermath of a disaster is going to be further down on the priority list than you might think it would be, because of the many other things a disaster brings with it every single time. I used the hurricane as an example because I have been through a good many hurricane/power out/emergency type situations. We grilled hamburgers and had a party during the last one.

It takes me 2-3 days work around here to prepare for something like Katrina, and afterwards, there are ten thousand things to do - cleanup/repair, etc. I have never experienced a need to defend my property as a result of a hurricane. I am well aware that it is a very real possibility, but the need to clear trees off roads, dry in damaged roofs, check on elderly people who live nearby, help those who may have been injured or trapped is an absolute certainty - you can count on it happening, and so I spend more time making sure my chainsaw and other tools are ready than I do my guns. My guns are very simple to make ready, and so that kind of thing really is a very tiny part of emergency preparation.

I suppose it's possible to live your life in such a way that you are always 100% prepared for bad people who could attack you in some way, but I choose not to because it takes away from life itself. This is not naive, it's just called minimizing risk rather than completely eliminating it. There is a huge difference.
 
You are no doubt a good man and neighbor and I applaud your sense of community. I'm sure you can also realize that for every day that passed those on the bad side crept closer to your neighborhood and it was only stopped by the influx of supplies that finally reached the most stricken areas. My point in this is simply that at some point we might be truly overwhelmed and unable to support a rescue/aid mission and then the worst may actually play out.
 
In a natural disaster there are three kinds of activity that are characterized as "looting".

1. Just Plain Stealing. TVs, computers, guns, clothes, CDs, jewelry...all stuff that would be illegal regardless of the circumstances. Stolen either from somebody's house or place of business.

2. Scrounging, part 1. 5 or 6 years ago we had a tornado come through the south side of Indianapolis and people were arrested for "looting" who were picking up aluminum siding off the street to be redeemed for cash at a recycling center.

3. Scrounging, part 2. Going into wrecked structures to get food, clean water, minimal clothing to protect one from the elements, get some first aid stuff, get some meds that you need (not to get high off of). We saw some of this during Katrina.

Type 1 is a shooting offense.

Type 2 is not a shooting offense, I'm sorry, I just cannot morally justify that. Tossing people in the clink maybe...not shooting.

Type 3 is just folks doing what they need to do and is probably not even wrong morally or legally.
 
I don't think that doing all of that is bad, I am just pointing out that for most of the people on these forums, defending your property against thieves and roving mobs of looters in the aftermath of a disaster is going to be further down on the priority list than you might think it would be, because of the many other things a disaster brings with it every single time.
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Eh, it's a gun forum so people talk more about guns. I wouldn't read too much into that.
 
A lot of questions and answer here and a lot of naive BS. HoosierQ has good survival common sense and I think he knows what I was talking about when I started this post.
He quantified what would would be considered survival, what is crimanal and what is pure evil.
In case of catistrophic breakdown of society my first move is not to bunker down but I have a plan for that and can drop back to that in a nano-second if necessary.
Pure survival and recovery is impossible without other people helping, but that doesn't leave any room for evil people who have grown so use to free hand outs that they beleave in free for the taking.
 
BUT, I've got to admit - my first thought after the storm was "what can I do to help?" And in some twisted turn of events, it would appear that the way I handled it was not very "high road" after all. The "high road" thing to do apparently would be to go commando and place a higher value on defending my possessions than on helping people who no longer had any possessions.

I had my 13 year old son with me the whole time, so should I now feel bad for showing him the wrong set of values?
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Zip ----- I have to take it that what you posted is true as far as you helping out others.
As you know --- it feels good to do good --- we may not get any rewards on Earth for it but IMHO , in the end --- we will be rewarded.

NOW ---- PLEASE SHOW ME where myself or others did the "in some twisted turn of events, it would appear that the way I handled it was not very "high road" after all. The "high road" thing to do apparently would be to go commando and place a higher value on defending my possessions etc. etc. "

Myself and most others here would "bleed" for family/friends/neighbors --- I have put my life on the line more then once doing so. Almost all here are not " totally focused on keeping roving bands of people from stealing things from you," --- but we will protect , with our livies if need be , those people and the things we have for them to survive.

you made the statement " then you are either an idiot, or you need to move - you live in a bad neighborhood. " --------- I then made a statement and you DID NOT address that point of some people CAN NOT JUST move to a better "hood" .

And at this time , I will not address your namecalling as in Idiot etc. ---- But I hope you understand this ---- if a person has a great deal of possessions , it is easy to lose some or give some away. When a person has little or next to nothing , then someone STEALING that is a greater loss to them.
 
THE SHOOTIST - "Always liked that handgun Putin had in that pic -I want one !"
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Putin's handgun?? I want a pair of those ear muffs Putin's wearing that you can wear under your chin!! ;)

L.W.
 
I believe that's what they mean by "moral relativism". I also believe that's a B.S. excuse to do what's wrong.
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If you don't mind my asking what is the source of your universal moral code?
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Sounds a bit snarky.

From what you've written about yourself, it would appear that I acquired my moral code much the same as you acquired yours: proper upbringing, proper parenting, proper role models, faith in God, and The Bible. Where we differ, is that I didn't make assumptions about you the way that you did about me.

I never read the version that says, "Thou shalt not steal, unless..."

I believe it is possible to lend a hand while also watching out for and providing for those who depend on you.

DD
 
To keep things relevant to the OP's post... Has anyone seen coverage of looting after the Haiti quake? What were they looting? Is there anything to loot in Haiti?

Most "looting" appeared to occur in Chile and most of it seemed to occur at commercial properties, not private residences. Since we all here support personal responsibility, if that was my business, I would have insurance. Unless I was present at the business and my life was being threatened, the looting is not my problem.

I will use deadly force in a heartbeat to protect my life and my family. If someone attempts to enter my home when me or my family is present, it is prudent to assume that this is being done with bad intentions and I will defend this with appropriate force.

I don't remember looting, in and of itself, as a deadly offense. If you are referring to home invasion... than "looting" would be an incorrect term
 
Unless I was present at the business and my life was being threatened, the looting is not my problem.
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People wave insurance around like a magic wand. If my business is insured for $100k, and I get cleaned out by looters, it's not like they just write me a check for $100k. Insurance nickels and dimes and not pays, not to mention the deductable.

And ignoring all that, there is the cost of being out of business for a while.

People wave insurance around like you get to sit by the pool for a while and then get made whole. That is not the reality of insurance - it just helps keep you from sustaining a total loss. The loss you are left with you might not be able to recover from.
 
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