Confronted on the way home from a IDPA match...

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Glad it turned out well for you

The only thing I'll add is, whenever the gas low light comes on you still have a couple of gallons remaining. Find out just how much on your model of car. That could mean another20-60 miles of driving to a more preferable location, depending on the car and speed of course.
 
Do you feel that your choice to open carry that day dissuaded a more...direct confrontation by the aggressor?
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No doubt the presence of the firearm, accompanied by an assertive willingness to not become a victim, played a role. I do think it gave a good impression that I was not an easy target, so in this circumstance perhaps. I am not an open carry activist nor do I go to extremes to hide the fact that I carry. I am generally concealed but if I'm stepping out for just a minute or something I find that most people don't even notice.

Did easy rider ever realize you were armed?
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Yes, there was an obvious moment (end of paragraph six in my original post) that it became apparent to him, coinciding with my assertive demand to stop. This is speculation now but, though he stopped advancing his demeanor did not change which leads me to believe he was weighing his options. That is the point in time he must have realized that I was not a willing victim or participant in his charade.

That brings up another point though. Just because it is apparent that you are armed does not mean that an aggressor is going to stop their threatening actions. At best they may hesitate and provide you with a few extra seconds of time. That seemed to happen here. You just don't know as some people either don't think you'll follow through or don't care.
 
But why do you hit your brakes to avoid a collision because someone has come up BEHIND you?
Sounds to me like you decided to "Teach him a lesson."
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No, that really isn't the case. rduckwor could probably attest that I am about the most subdued person you could ever meet. I would rather look like a pansy, let the other guy win, and run away with my tail between my legs than have a confrontation.

I guess I could have gone into more detail but I hit my brakes for several reasons. The first reason is because it happened so quickly that I was startled. The second reason is that on the tight left curve a motorcycle (or anyone) coming up behind you so fast that it is obvious that they will be passing you or wreck may very well cause you to hit your brakes and veer right, which I tried to do. However, if I went too far right I would be in a ditch because it is a poorly maintained country road. Honestly, if I hadn't have hit my brakes he probably would have collided with the front of my car as he went around the left side but going so fast he was drifting right. Anyway, perhaps I am not being clear but I am not out to teach anyone a lesson. I know it is for some people, but that is not my style.
 
Wow, I am glad you're ok and nothing had to go down. Nice job on handling a serious situation.
 
No, that really isn't the case. rduckwor could probably attest that I am about the most subdued person you could ever meet. I would rather look like a pansy, let the other guy win, and run away with my tail between my legs than have a confrontation.
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JS is a cool guy. Very quiet and unassuming. He does appear mild mannered, but one should never judge the book by it's cover. He shoots well and knows his way around an IDPA course with the best. No BS, he just gets it done.

The roads into our club are terrible with a capital "T". I can certainly understand the fright of suddenly seeing a motorcycle or any other vehicle coming up at a high rate of speed and surprising you after rounding a bend in the road. I've rounded a few of those bends and been surprised by traffic.

I have to wonder if alcohol was involved on the part of the MC rider as most sober people drive these roads with some serious respect due to their poor condition.

RMD
 
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jscott said:
No, that really isn't the case. rduckwor could probably attest that I am about the most subdued person you could ever meet. I would rather look like a pansy, let the other guy win, and run away with my tail between my legs than have a confrontation.

I guess I could have gone into more detail but I hit my brakes for several reasons. The first reason is because it happened so quickly that I was startled. The second reason is that on the tight left curve a motorcycle (or anyone) coming up behind you so fast that it is obvious that they will be passing you or wreck may very well cause you to hit your brakes and veer right, which I tried to do. However, if I went too far right I would be in a ditch because it is a poorly maintained country road. Honestly, if I hadn't have hit my brakes he probably would have collided with the front of my car as he went around the left side but going so fast he was drifting right. Anyway, perhaps I am not being clear but I am not out to teach anyone a lesson. I know it is for some people, but that is not my style.
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Thanks for clarifying, that makes a lot more sense now.

Glad to hear everything went well, you definitely did good.
 
Thank-you for the post, and for making it so professional. No chest-thumping there! Kudos! Your situation goes to show that regardless how respectful we are, trouble can follow us. Even when we try to de-escalate the situation, and try to flee, trouble still can follow us. You re-learned some good lessons there.

The sole part I am uneasy with is the being approximately 10 feet away and him expressing violent intent. In Michigan, where we have legislated Castle Doctrine, he very easily could get his "eminent threat stopped". We have zero duty to retreat; zero duty to warn. I do not know of any MCPL-holder who would have reacted with the tremendous self-restraint that you did! Impressive.

BTW, I agree, good thing you had your pistol with you. I will say that I have seen a considerable decrease in cases of road rage here since Michigan passed Shall Issue for MCPLs. Used to be few people carried; now, you don't know who is packin' what. IMHO, Shall Issue, combined with legislated Castle Doctrine has ratcheted-down the frequency of bravado we used to see in Michigan.

Thank-you again for sharing.

Geno
 
He never drew a weapon but you had two....one leathal and one non leathal. Had he advanced, a face full of Unleaded would have slowed him down a step. If he continued, a face full of lead would have stopped him for sure. "Sir....would you like Unleaded or Leaded?" Glad it didn't come down to that. Nice job!
 
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Where do you live at and where do you shoot at? I live right outside of Montgomery and was just curious for my future endeavors.
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Though some could probably figure it out I am not trying to bring the club or area any undue attention. I sent you an IM though.
 
An interesting question is, at what point would he have been justified in shooting?
 
I would suggest that had the guy shown a weapon such as a gun, justification would have been achieved the very moment he attempted to place it into play.

Also, had this guy invaded a self-determined defense zone with or without a bladed weapon, he would have been justified. The fact that this guy kept one hand behind his back, bluffing or not, makes this decision difficult. The fact that he was physically larger than the OP also plays into the equation.

All-in-all, a very personal decision and a difficult one to make in the heat of defense.

RMD
 
If he were in 21ft or so and indicated he had a weapon of some kind I would think that would be sufficient.
 
Joshua--

I'll start with a motorcyclist's observation that your sudden braking for the curve may have led the biker to think that you were "brake checking" him. I've had it happen to me and it creates a potentially fatal situation for someone on two wheels. I think that there's a pretty good chance that the guy thought you were trying to do this to him, which was perhaps why he was so enraged.

Nonetheless, it seems like you handled things will from the point that it became clear that the biker was intent on a confrontation. All of this points out the fact that seemingly innocuous oversights, like forgetting your cell phone or draining your tank down to near empty, can compound your problems if things get dicey.
 
Taking advantage of the fact that he is dismounted and now has his helmet off,
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You were fine ... he's a rookie "biker" and was selling wolf tickets. I learned the hard way ... never unbuckle your belt or unbutton your pants at the urinal (pull it out thru the zipper hole) and never take your helmet off when you're about to duke it out. Both techniques - passed on by older 1%ers back in the day - have saved me some grief over the years. :D

Seriously though, glad it worked out. There are idiots everywhere. Not just in Alabama.



"Sir....would like Unleaded or Leaded?"
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LMAO!
 
shockwave said:
First, my thanks to jscott for the excellent report.

My question regards strategy and tactics: Would it have been a good move to leave the car and go to the gas station, ask the clerk to call the police? I see a pro and a con with that, and some of the factors depend on how far the pumps were from the store. In a similar IPSC scenario, the shooter takes position behind the open car door.

These are just open questions for discussion - it sounds like the situation was handled well as stated and it's a good thing the matter didn't escalate further.
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That would certainly limit the bystander effect or any other crowd psychology effects and you would know for certain if it was a case of the bystander effect or if they were all the motorcyclist's friends, but it would also put distance between jscott and his means of escape which could have made the story go a very different way.

MisterMike said:
I'll start with a motorcyclist's observation that your sudden braking for the curve may have led the biker to think that you were "brake checking" him. I've had it happen to me and it creates a potentially fatal situation for someone on two wheels. I think that there's a pretty good chance that the guy thought you were trying to do this to him, which was perhaps why he was so enraged.
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No offense intended her, I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything. I am scared to death of driving behind motorcycles because I know how fast they can stop on a dry road and I don't want to be the one who rear ends a motorcyclist. That said, I have motorcyclists do the same thing to me all the time. Where I live, there is a freeway junction where you have to allow cars to enter the freeway and merge left while you are trying to merge right to go south on another freeway. It is hard to explain, but it is a difficult maneuver in traffic in good conditions, but SO often I will merge right and some idiot on a sport bike will cut me off and slam on his brakes to avoid hitting the car in front of me RIGHT after I merge.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the driving world would be a better place if we were all more courteous, but often times motorcyclists seem to think that they are 10 feet tall and invincible once they get their helmet and leathers on and pull some stupid maneuvers that make them much more likely to end up in the hospital without the assistance of negligent drivers.
 
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Good job. You may have taught that rider a good lesson about doing that "faking a weapon" thing . Im glad no one was hurt.
 
We dont actually know he was faking a weapon.
Although he certainly was not acting very prudent as the poster definitely had a firearm and in plain sight.
Not smart at all acting as if you were going for a weapon unless the guy was really trying to get you to pull on him.
 
Good post, interesting story, sounds like you did very well with what you had at the time. You already know the things that could be improved (gas & phone), and it sounds like your response face-to-face was NOT one of those things needing improvement.

Glad it went down successfully with nobody hurt.


I do have a question for you (and other participants): Assuming that the gas tank was on the top half, and you had your cell with you as usual, how would you have dealt with this guy tailing you that far away from home base?

In otherwords, do you have a feel for how this would have gone down if you didn't have to pull over? That guy might have been of the mind-set to create the same situation an hour away if it had gone that far.

Just curious, since your background and recent experience suggests that you may have thought this one through as well.
 
Interesting story. It's always an uneasy feeling to be confronted like that in a strange place where you feel out numbered.

Gas stations can be pretty dangerous if you are unsuspecting and stop in the wrong area. That's why I keep a serpa paddle holster under my seat. Even if I'm not carrying that day, I at least have my weapon locked in trunk and I can slip it on long enough to pump gas or whatever and leave.

The "stop snitching" intimidation movement almost certainly guaranteed the lack of a 911 call on your behalf.
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I'm going to have to disagree with that. My feeling is that the people just didn't care. Most incidents that go down like that in bad areas don't get reported unless there is a physical fight or something worse ensues. The only people who will report it are typically one of the two parties or a store employee trying to cover his bases legally. Many people these days are just too apathetic to get involved by helping, much less calling 911. This knows no financial or racial barrier. Heck, I once saw a guy in Mercedes SUV honking the horn at a young lady trying to change her tire because her jack handle was blocking his exit. She was obviously 16-17 and changing her first flat tire, practically in tears. People can be very apathetic, some simply because they are "too busy" to help or don't want to get involved since it requires interaction on their part.
 
Assuming that the gas tank was on the top half, and you had your cell with you as usual, how would you have dealt with this guy tailing you that far away from home base?

In otherwords, do you have a feel for how this would have gone down if you didn't have to pull over? That guy might have been of the mind-set to create the same situation an hour away if it had gone that far.
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If I had the cell phone and did not have fuel issues, I would have made my way to the freeway and towards the most populated area I could find, where it is most likely that law enforcement would be. While coordinating with the dispatcher I would drive to the closest officer available or let them be guided to me. If he wanted to follow me that far so be it.

If I did not have my cell phone but I did have a full tank of gas my actions would not change much from that. I would still drive to the most populated area I could find, looking for an officer or a police station if I am familiar with the area. I would avoid driving to my house, whether near or far, as I do not want the person knowing where I live.

Regardless of whether the tank is full or whether you're on the line with 911, you may be forced into action before you can get assistance. Again, speculation here but it would be very easy for someone to pull alongside of you when you have to stop at a light and open fire, etc. It is not unheard of which is why your plan must be constantly developed and updated as events unfold.

I truly believe in having the warrior mindset and not hesitating to take action when required to do so. I believe that a hesitation to act may very well have dire consequences. If confronted you should be assertive while not appearing to be the aggressor.

Just the same, I would rather gracefully exit and let my opponent think I am a chicken. There are few good outcomes of a fight, whether armed or not.

Most incidents that go down like that in bad areas don't get reported unless there is a physical fight or something worse ensues.
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There is probably some truth to that. There is probably some truth to the intimidation factor in some of the harsher neighborhoods. Often, someone assumes that someone else is calling 911. Too many times, they just don't want to get involved insofar as even making a phone call.

This particular gas station isn't exactly in the best nor the worst of areas, but it is true that gas stations in general tend to be locations where we are vulnerable to beggars, thieves, cons, and the like.
 
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I would have made my way to the freeway and towards the most populated area I could find, where it is most likely that law enforcement would be. While coordinating with the dispatcher I would drive to the closest officer available or let them be guided to me.
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Excellent advice, brother! This is advice that needs to be repeated until we are all blue in the face.

My ex-girlfriend called me once, panic stricken and scared. Her ex fiancé was following her down the highway and calling her phone non-stop(her secretary unknowingly gave out her phone number to the wrong guy), and I should mention that she also had a restraining order and assault charges out on him. I managed to get her calmed down and driving normally while my friend who was riding shotgun got on his cell and dialed 911. We picked the best public place between her and I, which was a strip mall. I was waiting in the car when she got there. She pulled in to park, he pulled in behind her and was dragged from his car before he ever got it shut off by officers waiting nearby. It was all pretty swift, he was pulled over before she ever fully stopped. An unmarked unit even had enough time to fall in behind them and witness the entire event, which led to some pretty damning testimony in court when combined with the cell phone records.

Your average chest-thumper would have said “let him follow you to my house and see what he does” or made the mistake of confronting the ex alone, but chances are he would have broken tail and ran. Then you have nothing except for personal testimony, which isn’t reliable. The way it worked out, no one got hurt, no one was endangered, we had officers’ testimony at that point and we got to watch him get dragged out on the pavement and cuffed. I would have liked to have at the guy, but it would have done no one any good, except to make matters worse and possibly end up facing charges myself.

It is best to avoid confrontation when there are better choices available. In this case we had the luxury of time.
 
He never drew a weapon but you had two....one leathal and one non leathal. Had he advanced, a face full of Unleaded would have slowed him down a step. If he continued, a face full of lead would have stopped him for sure. "Sir....would you like Unleaded or Leaded?" Glad it didn't come down to that. Nice job!
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Hilarious.
 
Excellent advice, brother! This is advice that needs to be repeated until we are all blue in the face.

It is best to avoid confrontation when there are better choices available. In this case we had the luxury of time.
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Amen! I'm all about preparedness and being ready for trouble, but my first plan is always to either diffuse the situation by leaving / involve the authorities. I won't leave myself open in order to escape, but if I see a clean way out, I'll sure take it.

There's an old saying, "Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six." I'll add to that "Better still to be neither."

KR
 
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