Confronted on the way home from a IDPA match...

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Back in the early 90's my wife (now ex) was coming home from the Hickam AFB store where she worked and noticed a car following her. She kept driving towards our house in the Pearl City military housing area and flashed her headlights on and off as she approached the guard shack. There was a police car there at the time and he turned on his blue lights. The car following her immediately did a U-turn and left. She stopped at the guard shack and told them what was happening. They told her that they could not do anything except cite him for a U-turn even if they went after him.


When she told me about it, she also decided she wanted to carry a gun in the car. In Hawaii back then (and now I think) it was illegal to have a gun in the car unless you were on the way to a gun show, gunsmith/store, hunting area or rifle range. CCW is nearly impossible to obtain and bringing a gun onto a military base without prior permission (only allowed by police or base residents) is hard to get. Getting caught on base armed was likely to cost her the gun, car and job as well as put my housing privileges in jeopardy. She was also uncomfortable around guns. While I did not forbid her to carry a gun, we talked about these things and she still decided that she wanted a small pistol to take with in the car.

I bought her a Makarov in 380 auto. She said it was too heavy (she is a small filipina) and was unable to pull the slide back. I cut down the slide spring and loaded ammo with 90 grain bullets over 1.8 grains of bullseye. She joined me at the range a few times and learned how to use it, but the 90 grain bullets only went about 700 fps. In the end she did not carry it in the car. But she learned about the experience and she knew enough to never stop or get out of the car but to instead drive to the nearest police station and lay on the horn.

When I went out to sea for six months, she wanted her pistol taken out of the safe and stored in a handy place with a loaded magazine nearby. I warned her that the ammo was rather low powered and would really piss off her attacker if she shot him. My advice to her if she ever found herself in a position where she had to use deadly force was to empty the mag into the threat at close range then run like hell. She never had another close call, but it was a learning experience for both of us.

Ranb
 
I had to stop reading here.
I'm glad you're okay.
But why do you hit your brakes to avoid a collision because someone has come up BEHIND you?
Sounds to me like you decided to "Teach him a lesson."

I thought this as well , if he was behind you and speeding why would you hit your brakes, worst case scenario he was going to rearend you but hitting your brakes would have only made the situation worse. IF the motorcyclists was "break checked" that would better explain (not excuse) his irrate behavior.
 
Chances are, when you hit your brakes, he saw it as a deliberate action, and at his already unsafe rate of speed, he was forced into some form of emergency response, which probably scared the crap out of him. Chances are as well that he perceived you as having done it deliberately, hence his reaction.

You don't go chasing down a two-ton vehicle that can take you out with a small turn of the wheel just for fun.

Doesn't change anything, but makes his behavior a little more understandable.

Good effort on your part keeping your cool.
 
Moral: Dont come to a gunfight with only a motorcycle and bad attitude!!
 
Just a question about de-escalation versus putting yourself at a disadvantage. It seems like you knew/thought he was armed and did not draw because (I'm assuming) you thought that would make him draw. If he did draw, you could have ended up in a quick draw contest. Do you think the risk of havig to draw and fire instead of just fire was worth it? Meaning if you already had the gun pointed at him and he drew, then you could have just fired instead of having to draw, aim, and fire while he was doing the same with a slight time advantage since he would be going first.

Since you're a competitive shooter, I'm assuming you would have won, but was that part of the thought process at the time? Did you figure you could beat him if he drew, and if so, did that have anything to do with IDPA?

Sorry if that's too detailed of a question.
 
"While driving the poor condition two-lane county road toward the main strip, a motorcycle came speeding up behind me out of nowhere and almost crashed into me from behind as I was taking a curve to the left. The poor condition of the road combined with the rider’s behavior was almost catastrophic and I had to hit my brakes to avoid a collision"

This statement doesn't make sense. So you are saying that he came up behind you and almost ran into the back or your car, then you hit the brakes to prevent a collision. Is there any way that you left your lane at the same time he was attempting to pass you and that's what set him off.
 
you had to hit your brakes to avoid a collision? But he was behind you? Maybe you were alarmed at the distance between his motorcycle and your car, or the rate at which he closed the gap between you two. I guess I fail to realize how you braking aides in avoiding a collision with someone to your rear (in most circumstances).

That said, I think you handled the rest of the situation very well, and learned some invaluable lessons in the process.

Stay safe.
 
I think the OP means the MC rider almost hit the FRONT of his car as he ZOOMED by and changed lanes back into the correct travel lane.

I've had this happen to me as the driver when a MC was weaving in and out of traffic, the only way to AVOID collision as he passed was to brake so he wouldn't clip my front.

Good job all in all.
 
I've had this happen to me as the driver when a MC was weaving in and out of traffic, the only way to AVOID collision as he passed was to brake so he wouldn't clip my front.

That's very close to what occurred. I tried to address that question several posts back but I think a couple people missed it. No, I was in no way provoking a fight. I am content enough in my ability to handle a fight without having to provoke one to prove it.

It seems like you knew/thought he was armed and did not draw because (I'm assuming) you thought that would make him draw.

I had a strong belief that he was armed but was not completely certain. He could have been bluffing. Nonetheless, I knew that I had the drop on him if you will. Would my drawing have made him draw? Perhaps, but honestly that did not cross my mind. I made my decision based upon the totality of the circumstances. Yes, I was riding a very fine line between drawing or not.

I also believe in surviving any confrontation physically, mentally, and legally. I am confident in my abilities both physically and mentally. Legally, I would rather not draw on a person whom it turned out was unarmed. Yes, I know this could be a point of contention because anyone would reasonably believe that the person was armed and therefore theoretically be justified in drawing. However, I weighed the totality of the circumstances and felt that I was able to maintain the advantage without drawing my weapon.

If he did draw, you could have ended up in a quick draw contest.

True, and there was a point I described in which he started to move as I made my way to the driver's side of the car. I already had a firm grip on my weapon and was half way clear of the holster when he did that. He apparently rethought his decision, but yes, it was almost a quick draw situation.

Do you think the risk of having to draw and fire instead of just fire was worth it? Meaning if you already had the gun pointed at him and he drew, then you could have just fired instead of having to draw, aim, and fire while he was doing the same with a slight time advantage since he would be going first.

I do feel it was worth it in this case. My intention was to de-escalate to the greatest extent possible without compromising my ability to take action the moment it became necessary.

Since you're a competitive shooter, I'm assuming you would have won, but was that part of the thought process at the time? Did you figure you could beat him if he drew, and if so, did that have anything to do with IDPA?

Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have beaten him to the draw, and the knowledge of my own capabilities played a role. Hopefully, that plays a role in anyone's decision making process. I already had my cover picked out as well and was using it to the best of my ability. I'm not trying to come off the wrong way, but yes, I am confident that my reaction would have been faster than his action. That was proven when he began to abruptly move his arm from behind his back and my weapon almost cleared leather. When I draw I also immediate step right or left to move out of the line of fire and seek a position of cover. He was in the open. These things go through your mind quick but you will also respond the way you train.

This is a question that also comes down to your personal skill so I would encourage anyone to think about it in terms of their own abilities. At what point would you draw? If you can articulate the reason than I couldn't fault anyone for that.

Did it have anything to do with IDPA? Here's a plug for competitive shooting. I do think that IDPA and similar competitions make you a faster, smoother, more capable handler of a weapon. It is not a substitute for continued practice and training. I have had a lot of both and am a law enforcement/military/civilian trainer.
 
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I've done that scenario a few times at matches myself. I always wondered "What makes the guy who runs this show think I'd stop in such a place where I'd be outnumbered by 10 gang-bangers in the first place?"

I now have a new perspective on that scenario.
 
The one mistake I noticed is you say "someone call 911". In an emergency situation if you aren't the one on the phone you need to point at a present attentive witness, make brief eye contact, and say "you please call 911 now". If they don't, you move on to the next person and do the same thing.

There have been many psych studies about bystanders in emergencies. Most people won't help because they assume someone else already is, it's not their problem, etc etc unless you specifically command them to.

Granted this would be hard to remember under stress... taking your attention off the aggressor... but since we're in strategies + tactics I thought I'd point it out. Otherwise it sounds like you did everything right- avoided, then de-escalated long enough to get out. Glad everything worked out alright.
 
Maybe it took so long for him to leave you alone because you weren't "speaking his language."

"Homeboy, I advise you to vacate the premises. If you continue muggin' and steppin' to me, I will have no other viable option but to bust a cap."

I bet that would work.
 
I know when fueling my car I have a very powerful tool in my hand that can dump a half gallon or so on someone kinda fast. Can you imagine the terror of a half gallon of fresh gas squirted on you? The last thing you would do is fire your pistol as an aggressor.

I doubt you would need to fire at all. I don't dwell on these things but it is part of my situational awareness. I am just in the habit of scanning for dangers and things that can be used as weapons if needed.

You came home alive and wiser.
So thats two points for you that day!

Off point but I always use the half full gas guage as an empty mark and refuel.
 
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I know when fueling my car I have a very powerful tool in my hand that can dump a half gallon or so on someone kinda fast. Can you imagine the rerror of a half gallon of fresh gas squirted on you? The last thing you would do if fire your pistol as an aggressor.
During my infrequent trips to Chicago to visit my mother, I am completely prepared to use a vehicle or gasoline at the pump as a weapon.
 
Well handled bad situation, OP.

With one exception that you already know: Gas.

My car is my escape pod.

It never gets below a half tank, even on trips. Around town, I usually fill up at 3/4 full.

It only takes a few minutes, and $10-15 in gas at a fill up is a lot less painful than $40-50+.

John
 
I'll start with a motorcyclist's observation that your sudden braking for the curve may have led the biker to think that you were "brake checking" him. I've had it happen to me and it creates a potentially fatal situation for someone on two wheels. I think that there's a pretty good chance that the guy thought you were trying to do this to him, which was perhaps why he was so enraged.

Nonetheless, it seems like you handled things will from the point that it became clear that the biker was intent on a confrontation. All of this points out the fact that seemingly innocuous oversights, like forgetting your cell phone or draining your tank down to near empty, can compound your problems if things get dicey.

What Mr.Mike said....

What's the big deal with the cell phone though? Dialing 911 might give you a "plus" checkmark in the ensuing legal investigation, but the confrontation would have been long over (with any outcome) before the police arrived. I think I'd rather be looking to my firearm and my life, before dialing 911 and trying to explain the situation to some dispatcher, or worse - listening to the muzak version of the "girl from Ipanema" while a (possibly) armed assailant moves in on me.
 
Quote:
"What's the big deal with the cell phone though? Dialing 911 might give you a "plus" checkmark in the ensuing legal investigation, but the confrontation would have been long over (with any outcome) before the police arrived. I think I'd rather be looking to my firearm and my life, before dialing 911 and trying to explain the situation to some dispatcher, or worse - listening to the muzak version of the "girl from Ipanema" while a (possibly) armed assailant moves in on me."


Getting someone to call 9-1-1 is always desirable...Had they been called, and had a shooting occured, it might have meant the difference in whether someone lived or died...as well as the "plus" checkmark in any ensuing investigation...

Jscott, glad it all worked out for you...cool head prevailed...thanks for sharing. I have a suspicion that
the gas tank will stay a little fuller from here on...
Tac
 
The main thing I remember from my concealed carry class is to do what you can to avoid an incident, which is exactly what the OP described. He did everything he could do AND followed up with the LEO. Pulling a trigger should always be last resort.

Good job!
 
Lots of interesting takes on this one. I realize the thread is a bit old, but feel that an observation might be useful here.

The situation seems to have been handled correctly, and de-escalation is always the best route, if possible.

However.....

I have found that sometimes the best way to achieve that de-escalation is to make it obvious from the start that you are not intimidated. I don't mean you go as far as becoming the aggressor by any stretch. What I mean is, that continually evasive action doesn't always work. Yes, there can be a fine line between standing your ground and making matters worse, and the proper course of action is best determined by a level-headed person. Sometimes, a stern "tone of voice" in your look will get the point across without any verbal or physical threats. I've had more than a couple instances of hot-heads behind the wheel trying to instigate something. But nothing has ever come of it, and I believe that is due in no small part to the confident, assertive, dead-in-the-eyes look the rager gets from me when he sees my face. It simply tells them that there's no intimidation factor, and these bullies aren't used to that. It also tells them that if they want to continue, they'll have to actually do something risky. thus far, none have ever possessed the constitution to take it to the next level.

Take my observation for what it's worth.
 
The one mistake I noticed is you say "someone call 911". In an emergency situation if you aren't the one on the phone you need to point at a present attentive witness, make brief eye contact, and say "you please call 911 now". If they don't, you move on to the next person and do the same thing.

There have been many psych studies about bystanders in emergencies. Most people won't help because they assume someone else already is, it's not their problem, etc etc unless you specifically command them to.

Granted this would be hard to remember under stress... taking your attention off the aggressor... but since we're in strategies + tactics I thought I'd point it out. Otherwise it sounds like you did everything right- avoided, then de-escalated long enough to get out. Glad everything worked out alright.

i agree with this... its how they teach even CPR classes now because the onlookers feel they are watching tv until they are singled out. make eye contact IF POSSIBLE... i'd hate to take my eyes off the threat though.
 
Joshua--

I'll start with a motorcyclist's observation that your sudden braking for the curve may have led the biker to think that you were "brake checking" him. I've had it happen to me and it creates a potentially fatal situation for someone on two wheels. I think that there's a pretty good chance that the guy thought you were trying to do this to him, which was perhaps why he was so enraged.

Nonetheless, it seems like you handled things will from the point that it became clear that the biker was intent on a confrontation. All of this points out the fact that seemingly innocuous oversights, like forgetting your cell phone or draining your tank down to near empty, can compound your problems if things get dicey.

I agree we have to fairly look at it from both perspectives, and I have to say the guy very well probably thought you were trying to brake check him. Dangerous by the way. Not saying you were, but in all likely hood thats what he thought you were doing.

I have had some crazy lady try that on me once, and believe you me I was pissed, but just swerved around her and kept going. Then she sped up passed me and motioned me to pull over, and I just ignored her and kept on going when she pulled over. I didn't care to know what kind of service she wanted to offer me ha ha.:neener:
 
2) Yes, I know I shouldn’t have forgotten my cell phone in the trunk.

Don't feel bad, I don't carry an form of electronics. Ever.
 
How much more would it have taken on his part to force your hand?

If he showed a gun? Came 5 feet closer?

Had you drawn your mental line in the sand?

I'm just trying to use it as a base line. I know are skills are different.
 
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