15,000 rds in an AR without cleaning.

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Seems a little foolish to me. Anyone who will use intellectual integrity knows that the DI system is well proven when lubed properly.

Bet he had a hell of a time cleaning all of that junk out of the rifle.
 
Nice, it almost beat Old Dirty, but not quite.:evil: Old Dirty ran for 5k rounds with a broken recoil spring, and is still going past 15k rounds....

Fal>AR
 
Proves what?

I was told by a guy who worked rebuilding rifles at Anniston Army Depot, they pull a M16 from a lot of rebuilt rifles and run it though an endurance test.

6000 rounds are fired through the rifle as fast as they can go. Between magazine changes compressed air is blown through the barrel to cool it down. My friend could not recall a time when a rebuilt rifle failed to complete the course.

He did not tell me if they lubed anything during the test.


What this proves is that the M16 was developed to a high level of mechanical reliability. It does not prove that it is not dust sensitive.

And compared to an AK, an M16 is very maintenance heavy.
 
Son did several tours in Iraq. Said they had to clean the M16's 2X a day when it got windy and dusty. AK's they picked up functioned no matter what the conditions were.
 
I think its funny how many people are offended by an AR that can keep up with AKs. 15,000 rounds of wolf in any gun is going to be a disaster if you don't clean it. Semi autos are going to need lube after 1000 rounds or you are going to start destroying things very fast. They may cycle without lube, but not for long.
 
The claim that AR15's are unreliable is one of the great gun myths of the 20th and 21st century.
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It's annoying when someone takes an AR including some or all of the following characteristics:

---built from the cheapest-on-the-market kit of low-grade parts;
---assembled in a half-gluteal fashion without much attention to torque and staking (whether at home or by a mass-market manufacturer);
---run with only a drop or two of lubricant in accordance with the "AR's should never ever ever be run wet" mythos;
---fed with milsurp USGI aluminum magazines that are way beyond serviceable;

and then the person generalizes the inevitable failures of the Frankengun as applying to AR's, and posts it all over the Internet. Bonus points if they throw in the phrase "poops where it eats" (which it doesn't), and double bonus if they compare a mis-assembled $750 kit gun to a $1500-$2500 piston gun running PMAG's and gripe about how it's all the fault of the DI system.

Magazine failures are not the fault of the DI system. Short-stroking due to a loose gas key is not the fault of the DI system. And so on.
 
Justin:The claim that AR15's are unreliable is one of the great gun myths of the 20th and 21st century.
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Marines involved in the “Hill Fights” (881N – 881S & 861) during 1967 would take issue with your statement. It wasn’t a myth then.
 
Hangingrock said:
Marines involved in the “Hill Fights” (881N – 881S & 861) during 1967 would take issue with your statement. It wasn’t a myth then.
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And, there's reasons for that... the lardasses in the Pentagon went "cheap" and switched to a dirtier/cheaper powder than what was used/recommended in testing, they scrimped on the chrome lining, and didn't even ISSUE cleaning kits to the troops. The troops were told they were "self cleaning" weapons. I believe they also opted to omit the forward assist from the weapon too. Once they corrected THEIR stupid choices... the reliability came back.
 
My experience is that AR-15's are less than reliable.

But I will agree that when you take a high dollar AR and couple that with good training, preventative maintenance and expensive mags you will have a highly reliable gun. But really you're moving the goal posts at that point are you not?
 
islandphish said:
My experience is that AR-15's are less than reliable.

But I will agree that when you take a high dollar AR and couple that with good training, preventative maintenance and expensive mags you will have a highly reliable gun. But really you're moving the goal posts at that point are you not?
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Hmmm....? Define "high dollar" and "expensive" mags. And... seeing you appear to be in Alaska... are you talking COLD weather whoas while using cleaning/lubricating materials designed for more temperate climates?

I've got less money (per AR) than many consider shelling out for a shotgun, or even a good handgun. Meaning... $2,000.00 for BOTH of my ARs... and mine have not failed to fire/eject yet. I don't think I've paid more than $15/mag either.
 
AK vs AR? In my mine only accurate rifles are worth having and AK's are not!
 
My reply was directed, sort of at what benEzra stated above about el cheapo AR's causing the bad rap. Mags was the Pmags versus aluminium, though I guess they're really not all that costly.
 
It doesn't have to be a high-dollar to be reliable, just made of halfway decent parts, properly assembled, and (ideally) have some oil shot in and around the bolt carrier now and then. A DPMS or Olympic Arms rifle with a properly torqued and staked gas key and staked castle nut is probably going to run very reliably, even if it doesn't have quite the durability of a BCM/DD/LMT/Colt. And the best magazines (PMAG's) aren't expensive at all.

If some cut-rate AK builder wasn't bothering to pin the gas piston to the bolt carrier in the AK's it made, causing the gas piston to come loose and jam, few would blame the AK design for that; they'd be more likely to blame the lazy, out-of-spec assembly. Ditto if an AK were made with weak, substandard parts that even Norinco would be embarassed to use, or if someone's AK jammed because they were using worn out magazines with damaged feed lips.

I think you could probably get a very reliable AR for under $800, if you shop carefully.
 
Impressive. 16,000 rounds before the bolt lug snapped - and with a Bushmaster barrel and Model 1 bolt carrier group and upper too. Not exactly a high dollar AR by any means.
 
benEzra said:
It doesn't have to be a high-dollar to be reliable, just made of halfway decent parts, properly assembled, and (ideally) have some oil shot in and around the bolt carrier now and then. A DPMS or Olympic Arms rifle with a properly torqued and staked gas key and staked castle nut is probably going to run very reliably, even if it doesn't have quite the durability of a BCM/DD/LMT/Colt. And the best magazines (PMAG's) aren't expensive at all.

If some cut-rate AK builder wasn't bothering to pin the gas piston to the bolt carrier in the AK's it made, causing the gas piston to come loose and jam, few would blame the AK design for that; they'd be more likely to blame the lazy, out-of-spec assembly. Ditto if an AK were made with weak, substandard parts that even Norinco would be embarassed to use, or if someone's AK jammed because they were using worn out magazines with damaged feed lips.

I think you could probably get a very reliable AR for under $800, if you shop carefully.
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I believe you can get a Spike Tactical rifle for just that and they are suppose to be "milspec".

And just a FYI, I have seen several unreliable Ak47s in the hands of the Iraqi miliatry and police. They are truly robust rifles, but they can only take neglect for so long.
 
"I think you could probably geta very reliable AR for under $800, if you shop carefully". I can confirm that. I only paid $700 for my DPMS Mod_A-15 and couldn't be happier.
 
It's annoying when someone takes an AR including some or all of the following characteristics:

---built from the cheapest-on-the-market kit of low-grade parts;
---assembled in a half-gluteal fashion without much attention to torque and staking (whether at home or by a mass-market manufacturer);
---run with only a drop or two of lubricant in accordance with the "AR's should never ever ever be run wet" mythos;
---fed with milsurp USGI aluminum magazines that are way beyond serviceable;

and then the person generalizes the inevitable failures of the Frankengun as applying to AR's, and posts it all over the Internet. Bonus points if they throw in the phrase "poops where it eats" (which it doesn't), and double bonus if they compare a mis-assembled $750 kit gun to a $1500-$2500 piston gun running PMAG's and gripe about how it's all the fault of the DI system.

Magazine failures are not the fault of the DI system. Short-stroking due to a loose gas key is not the fault of the DI system. And so on.
Click to expand...

Well the old saying is you get what you pay for. I don't own an AR, and frankly they don't interest me enough to buy one. But my friends that I shoot with do, and they don't have problems with theirs. I think a properly cared for Colt or LWRC is just as reliable as any rifle. The LWRC's are amazing, you get what you pay for with those. I find it hard to imagin one of those would choke in a little dust or dirt.

The key from what I have seen are the mags. As long as you are running Pmags you will not have mag related issues. They are leaps and bounds better than other mags, and in my experiance go a long way to making the AR(or any rifle that feeds from them), damn near 100% reliable. OTOH from what I have seen a lot of problems are caused by people running old junk aluminum mags they pick up at gunshows for a song.
 
It doesn't have to be a high-dollar to be reliable, just made of halfway decent parts, properly assembled, and (ideally) have some oil shot in and around the bolt carrier now and then. A DPMS or Olympic Arms rifle with a properly torqued and staked gas key and staked castle nut is probably going to run very reliably, even if it doesn't have quite the durability of a BCM/DD/LMT/Colt. And the best magazines (PMAG's) aren't expensive at all.

If some cut-rate AK builder wasn't bothering to pin the gas piston to the bolt carrier in the AK's it made, causing the gas piston to come loose and jam, few would blame the AK design for that; they'd be more likely to blame the lazy, out-of-spec assembly. Ditto if an AK were made with weak, substandard parts that even Norinco would be embarassed to use, or if someone's AK jammed because they were using worn out magazines with damaged feed lips.

I think you could probably get a very reliable AR for under $800, if you shop carefully.
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I agree with BenEzra: the midlength AR I built last summer came in around $800 including sling, one magazine and used carry handle. Of course it's a FrankenAR and doesn't have tier 1 components but they are of good quality. It is reliable and I have no doubt that it will continue to run well. Today you could build it slightly cheaper or buy the Spikes Tactical LE middy for about the same cost. An $800 AR can do just fine if you're careful choosing the complete rifle or selecting and properly assembling parts. These "authoritative" reports that the AR is unreliable get old real quick.
 
Pmags aren't the be-all, end-all AR magazines. They're very well made, and run reliably, however, they're hardly a required piece of kit. I've got plenty of the old-style aluminum magazines that run just fine.
 
I've always wanted a carbine but I've watched them jam too many times. Perhaps it's operator error but isn't it a design flaw when it takes special (relative to most firearms) care to keep it running?
 
What's so special about cleaning a gun once in awhile and squirting some oil in the right places?

It's a gun. When it gets dirty, you clean it and oil it. This isn't exactly rocket science.

Of course, judging by the original post and the blog entry at TFB, even that minor amount of work can be put off for quite some time.
 
did you read the first post, islandphish?

at all?
 
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