I feel handicapped by self-defense law - scared to confront anyone

I think you're taking things overboard. An "interaction" only becomes a "confrontation" once it has been escalated. If you start the interaction in a hostile manner, yes, you are starting a confrontation. However, if you start the interaction with a reasonable request or introduction, and they escalate it to a hostile level, they have started the confrontation. Basically, the first person to not be civil starts the confrontation. If you honk at someone, that's not a confrontation as long as it ends there. If they decide to follow you, or you them, and confront, that is, by definition, a confrontation.

From what I believe, the law expects people to behave no matter what is said to them. You know "sticks and stones"? If they attack you then they started it, they would be charged with assault and you would be justfied in using self defense. In your case you are asking them to stop being unruley and is perfectly acceptable. If you yelled at them to turn that ****** music down and stop ******** swearing than maybe it would be different. Be polite!

The police have no duty to protect you as an individual.

That having been said, it's their job to enforce the law and maintain order. Seems like your "friends" at the pool were working at cross purposes to that.

Let the cops deal with matters of law and order, rather than trying to do it yourself or allowing the problem to remain.

If the police won't do something which quite clearly IS their job, then that indicates a need to apply administrative and political pressure on THEM. At this stage however, it appears that you've taken no "corrective" measures other than to absent yourself from a place where you have a right to be.

In any sane society, I would have been free to ask them to watch their language, turn the music down, and stop littering....not to mention leaving.

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Are you familiar with a period and/or location in human history where such a confrontation could be expected to end well for you? No-good, dirty, rotten, hoodlums have a well-deserved reputation for not taking correction well (especially from presumably older strangers of a different social and maybe racial demographic). Make that multiple ones, both emboldened by, and having to "front" for, their peers, and you could most definitely have a problem.

So, is such a "sane society" a utopia that doesn't/can't exist, or did you have a specific time and place in mind where respect for and obedience to the wishes of strangers was a given?

But I'm scared to. Not because I'm scared of them - I'm scared of the law.

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I think it would be reasonable to be "scared" of them. At least reasonably apprehensive. Assertive, highly blatant law breakers have a tendency to ALSO show little regard for the laws against assault and other more serious crimes. Leaving was EXACTLY the right solution to your problem. At least the first step to that solution.

Hoodlums and miscreants don't react well to responsible members of society asking them to stop being stupid. If a confrontation ensued from my request, and they began to pose a lethal threat to me, I honestly believe there is a good possibility of being prosecuted.

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I honestly believe there is a good possibility of you having a more immediate problem. A gun is not a ward against physical violence.

Further, a gun or two tucked inside a bag next to your chair is not even immediately accessible. Unless you are planning to approach these "hoodlums" with your hand on your gun inside the bag, your reaction time IF things do become violent is quite likely to be disappointingly slow. But approaching multiple trespassers (not on your personal property, apparently) clutching a weapon inside a bag is problematic at best. Few people (who've seen a gangster movie or two) don't understand what a hand hidden inside a bag or coat pocket implies -- especially when that person is making a demand (or "request").

Why? Instead of leaving, I 'started the confrontation.'

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Yes you did. Legally, perhaps. Situationally, definitely. That is not a situation that is very "winnable." The best solution would undoubtedly be to leave and notify security and/or the police (depending on where exactly this was happening) if they truly shouldn't have been in that place. If they are trespassing, law enforcement officers have the authority, backup, and legal protection to deal with that. If their behavior, speech, and music truly warranted it, the authorities can bring disturbing the peace charges and perhaps others. You don't have that authority, you don't have the "presence" (you're in your pool clothes -- not a uniform, you're with your wife -- not your partner officer, you're wearing sunscreen -- not body armor, etc.), and you might not simply have the ability to prevail if things do become violent.

[Even further, if this is a public place and their behavior does not cross certain bounds, then it is possible they have the same rights to use the facility in their way as you do in yours. Not sure -- might not apply.]

To sum it up, your guns really don't have anything to do with this situation. Until and unless these "hoodlums" directly confront and threaten you, personally, you have no legally defensible recourse to use your weapon, and a confrontation can certainly lead to a violent encounter (with highly unpredictable results). You certainly could be held to be a mutual combatant in any ensuing verbal and/or physical confrontation and you have just about NO control over how that situation develops and how it will look to a prosecutor and jury months later (if you're around to care).

There's folks who are employed to keep the peace. Let them do their job.

smhbbag1 wrote: "My wife and I just get up and leave. In any sane society, I would have been free to ask them to watch their language, turn the music down, and stop littering....not to mention leaving. But I'm scared to. Not because I'm scared of them - I'm scared of the law. Hoodlums and miscreants don't react well to responsible members of society asking them to stop being stupid. If a confrontation ensued from my request, and they began to pose a lethal threat to me, I honestly believe there is a good possibility of being prosecuted. Why? Instead of leaving, I 'started the confrontation."

When miscreants show up its a good idea to leave whether you have a gun or not. It just flat ain't worth the hassel.

"But just because I'm right, doesn't mean I'm safe."

Ain't THAT the truth?!

There was a time in our history when people were more respectful of others. I grew up in the 60's as a child, and for the most part, people were civil to one another. As time went on, into the 70's, I let my hair grow, and I was a bit rowdy myself as a teenager and into my early 20's.

Today, it seems like a LOT OF PEOPLE are looking for trouble - especially if they think you might have $$$$$. They are kind of egging you on to say something or do something so they can get their attorney and blow it all out of proportion in court.

Suddenly, the victim is being VICTIMIZED by the very system that should be PROTECTING you and me. Suddenly, you and I might see JAIL TIME!

For WHAT? :banghead:

I just got to thinking, that was also a time when whites felt "superior" in some ways. I guess everything goes around.

Don't start fights.

Don't shoot anybody who is not attacking you or your kin.

Don't make it complicated.

Sheeze, I would've thought that was the three stooges or something.

Do you think that video was staged?

It was pretty comical.

Just look at EVERYTHING in the world today. Forty years ago, no one would say damn on television. Today they say just about anything on television, in music, wherever. It's like everyone has let down their "act nice" guard and treat each other worse than you would treat an animal!

I believe things are going to get a lot worse. More people, crowding, if there were a famine, people would be killing for one meal!

That's a recipe for the bad guys to win. Because the good guys do nothing.

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Seems to me that since time immemorial, the bad guys usually make out pretty good and the good guys finish last. See the infamous "Jesus and cross incident."

In this case, the problem involves living close to a housing project. If you live in proximity to low-lifes, you can expect lots of interaction with the thug set. Talk to the management about the issue and maybe look to move when practicable.

There should be very real and open scorn, mocking, shunning, etc. when

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Go get 'em tiger.

That's the world I want to live in.

move there american money goes further too

Today, it seems like a LOT OF PEOPLE are looking for trouble - especially if they think you might have $$$$$. They are kind of egging you on to say something or do something so they can get their attorney and blow it all out of proportion in court.

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As Sponge Bob says, "Good luck with that!"
Not only am I EXCEPTIONALLY good at ignoring such people, I'm exceptionally good at doing it on YouTube. I don't talk to most people who AREN'T belligerent jackasses. I had a 500lb., morbidly obese anti-abortion fanatic berate me for easily five minutes last year. I just kept reading my copy of Hogg's book on the machine gun while periodically taking pictures of him and his friends illegally blocking the view of street traffic from a driveway. He eventually gave up and waddled away, never knowing that I had a J-Frame Smith in my pocket.

If he would have physically attacked me and I felt reasonably in fear of life and limb, been unable to retreat "IN PERFECT SAFETY" and had shot him, Ohio law bars civil suit against me if the shooting is found to be justified.

They weren't breaking any laws.

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Well, if that is actually true, then they have as much right to do what they were doing as you do. You could ask them to stop, but if they refuse, you're pretty much out of options. That's the way a free society works, obviously. If you don't like what I'm doing you can ask me to consider changing my actions, but you can't coerce me into doing so if I don't agree. Perhaps that's not really at issue here, though.

If you're asking, can a jury convict you of manslaughter without an affirmative defense of "self-defense" simply because you make a polite request of some fellow citizens -- no, I really don't think so. Now, proving that you did nothing beyond that might be a trick, but if you can show that all you did to "instigate" the encounter was to ask them if they'd mind turning down their stereo, then I doubt you're going to have much trouble.

If, on the other hand, there is any evidence that you were aggressively confrontational, or in ANY way attempted to bully, coerce, or threaten them (especially by indicating in some way that you were armed) then the picture is very different. Hopefully, that is FAR from what you'd have in mind, but the line gets blurry sometimes ... especially to onlookers/witnesses.

Littering on private property is not illegal.
Playing offensive music is not illegal.
Cussing is not illegal.

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Actually, some of those things may be illegal -- at least misdemeanors like disturbing the peace. Again, if they are on private property presumably legally, then maybe not.

Trespassing is illegal, but there was no owner/staff on-hand to say they were trespassing. There is no way to prove they had no permission to be there. For all I know, they are the nephews of the owner and have permission to use the pool.

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Yup. That might be a good time to live and let live.

If they aren't doing anything illegal, then it's hard to say that walking away from them is akin to "good men doing nothing while evil prospers," isn't it?

Here's the problem: there are periods in human history, most notably U.S. history, where if I said something to them, and they got violent against me, I would not be liable for their gunshot wounds. Now, I fear I would be.

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I don't think the rules have changed that much. You cannot assume some moral high ground and try to force them to comply (whereas you may have been able to do exactly that 50 years ago) -- but in a case of a middle-aged man and his wife being assaulted by a group of young "toughs" the victim isn't generally going to have a terribly hard time convincing a jury that their actions of defense were reasonable -- if they were.

Further, a gun or two tucked inside a bag next to your chair is not even immediately accessible.

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Yes, it is. There was nothing else in the bag, and the draw would be just as fast as pulling from concealment.

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Really? I've run numerous simulated draw-from-a-bag situations (especially with the bag on the floor) and none of them were nearly as fast as drawing from a strong-side holster. But I don't know how you normally wear your gun, so maybe that doesn't apply.

I wouldn't have to approach them. I was on the opposite side of the pool. A simple "Would you mind turning the music down and watching your language?" should not have legal consequences for me, in any sane society.

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How big is this pool? How "conversational" is this encounter? If you are shouting at them (to be heard above the music) from across the pool (so as to not have to approach them) that's not nearly as polite and friendly as walking up to them open-handed and engaging them in a discreet, gentlemanly conversation about perhaps turning down the music. There is a LOT to be said for direct, personal politeness, and I think something important is lost when that polite gentleman is shouting his request at the violators from a distance.

Come up to me and ask me discreetly if I'd please do some thing you want me to do and you've probably got my positive attention. Shout that request at me from a distance and it is rude and off-putting. So that's why I assumed you'd at least leave your chair and approach them. Shouting "demands" at someone from a distance is rude in almost any culture.

My willingness to deal with the risk should be the only decision point....not whether I would also face legal consequences.

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Really? Again, I don't think a very polite conversation wherein you privately, discreetly express your request puts you at any legal disadvantage. Starting a shouting match across a neighborhood pool ... might.

Does a CCer open himself up to additional legal jeopardy every time he honks his horn, asks kids to turn the music down, objects to someone cutting in his line, calls out a shoplifter, etc?

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It is said that a man who carries a weapon in public has to become the most patient, most demure, most humble of people. EVERY encounter he ever has involves a deadly weapon -- because he brought it. Every encounter he has MAY end in a death at his hands, with all the moral and legal ramifications that come with taking a life. That is a weighty thought and one that cannot be over-stressed. There are no "simple" arguments. There are no scuffles over trivial insults. Honor and social "dignity" (the "fighting words" of our testosterone-amped ancestors) become unimportant. You must become a peacemaker, even if it means that you leave a place rather than endure the effrontery of rude youths. It isn't easy sometimes.

Now, the counter to that point (the yin to balance the yang) is that EVERY encounter a man ever had before starting to carry a gun MAY have involved a deadly weapon as well -- the other guy's. And every encounter MAY have ended in a death -- HIS. The smart fellow opens his eyes to that fact when he starts to consider the implications of his own lethal weapon, and begins to look at every encounter that way -- whether he's armed or not.

Life doesn't get more dangerous (physically or legally) when you carry a gun, you're just hopefully more aware of it.

To get away from philosophy and vignettes:

The situation: "I'm at the pool with my wife. (CC firearms available.) We were there to read in the sun, and not swim. No apartment staff/lifeguards were around.

Some no-good hoodlums from the projects down the road show up to swim. They're playing loud, offensive music, swearing like sailors, and littering as they hang out at a pool they're not allowed to be at."

It may be that in your state's laws that you, yourself, have no authority in the communal areas to deal with trespassers. Only within your apartment.

The best non-confrontational action would be to leave the pool and report to the manager of the complex. He has full authority to deal with trespassers--and it's just part of his job.

It was probably Jefferson that said "evil prevails when good men do nothing".

So, yes, discretely use your cell phone to notify the manager of the hoodlums. Insist that he do his job or the hoodlums will be back tomorrow.

So, yes, inform the store manager that the brats are stealing candy. Or they'll surely be back tomorrow for more.

So, yes, do something. But be smart and delegate to the proper authority when able. But do something.

Hoodlums and miscreants don't react well to responsible members of society asking them to stop being stupid.

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This.

When I started carrying on a regular basis, I quickly discovered what Sam is saying. Any encounter or disagreement can turn ugly - and I brought a gun to it.

I no longer even attempt to correct bad public behavior in others. While I agree that kinda sucks - it just aint worth it.

If they haven't learned decent manners BEFORE I encounter them, there is almost NO chance anything I can say will have a positive effect.

A thug will be a thug, regardless of how eloquent and correct you are in your criticism of them.

The closest I have come to having to draw my weapon in self defense came as a result of my attempt to correct the boorish, thuggish behavior of a miscreant at the dog park. Had he followed through on his threat to assault me, he would likely have been seriously injured or killed. As right as I may have been, my life would have been negatively effected.

That was the last time I will make such an attempt.

Think of it this way: Their crappy life isn't worth getting involved in on ANY level.

There was a time in our history when people were more respectful of others. I grew up in the 60's as a child, and for the most part, people were civil to one another.

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Whenever I see or hear statements like these I cringe (no offense Inspector).

I often hear people say "Times were better when I was a child". Often its heard from politicians when they want to pass some oppressive law that will somehow take us back to a better or simpler time.

The key part of this statement and its variants is "when I was a child". Unfortunately this utopia only exists in childhood memories.

Ask an adult of the same time period (any time period) and you will likely get a much different point of view.