How effective has 9mm FMJ proven to be in self defense?

Are there examples of it failing to stop

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YES

when a .45 would?

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probably not many

I eagerly await this discussion, I've got popcorn and beer.

Well, a WWII vet friend of my dads got stitched across the body with a German 9mm sub-machinegun.

According to the story my dad related to me, the guy killed the German with his .45 pistol and then walked some distance on his own back to an aid station to get patched up.

Whether that really happened with the .45 pistol or not is hard to say.
But I did see the 9mm bullet hole scars in his arm and chest cause he showed them to me when I was about 7 years old.
Something I have still not forgotten.

I somehow doubt he would have survived had the Germans been using Thompson's or M3 Grease-guns.

rc

9mm HP... I'll trust.

My 'concern' like yours, goes back to when I was doign WW2 renactments.

When the DD museum opened I was one of the renactors.

A Old guy was talking to us, pulled up his shirt and showed us several bullet wounds across his torso.

Told a similar story about 9mm vs 45...

One of the Assaultmen in Iraq took 13 rounds to put a Haji down...
Only reason that was enough was because the last 2 were in the head. (Rest were int he Torso)

Too many stories like those for my taste...

Just one opinion: It'll kill people, for sure. But it's not what you want for hedging your bets as a "stopper", more to the point.

I've only met two people (that I know of) who have shot someone who needed shooting with 9mm ball. In one case, the guy dropped (placement), and in the other, the guy ran off, never to be seen again. That correspondent was as sure as he could be, at least given the circumstances, that he hit the enemy at least a half-dozen times. Who knows, but that same story is one I've heard of before and since, FWIW.

Placement is more important, but it's just as easy to place a decent HP loading.

9mm fmj, as low as 58%. 9mm +P+ HP's, as high as 91%

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=15&Weight=115

Even if 9mm FMJ was enough, it is still a better idea to run a quality HP. As long as it is reliable in your firearm there is no good reason not to run the HP, they are at worst at least as effective as an FMJ and at best way more effective.

9mm fmj is pretty effective if you hit the brain, CNS, or heart. Other than that I'd say not very effective without multiple follow ups.

9mm HP is another story though.

I'd go for the FMJ if being attacked in close quarters by a group of assailants.

^^^^subtle.

I think that the experiences of the security contractors mentioned in this article give a pretty good view of what one can expect from 9mm fmj. As usual, the information from their perspective seems to bear out the theory that placement is more important than caliber.

http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0910.html

Cor-bon

I carry Cor-bon (+P) 115 grain in my 9mm for self defense(Velocity 1350 fps and energy 466ft.lbs) and FMJ for plinking.

I'd go for the FMJ if being attacked in close quarters by a group of assailants.

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Why?

The overpenetration will help to incapacitate others in the group.

I hear alot about how it is good now with modern ammo for self defense but what about before all these hollow points came onto the market? Are there examples of it failing to stop when a .45 would?

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"alot" is not a word.
Until you get a set of twins, convince them to attack someone, and then shoot one with 9x19mm and the other with 11.43x23mm (aka .45acp) you won't have a valid comparison.
In the vast majority of defensive cases, the need for defense diminishes as soon as the opportunistic predator realizes their victim selection was in error, rapists, muggers, murderers and the like don't measure your bore and chamber size before deciding how to react when shot, they GET SHOT and change their plans on the fly (or have plans changed for them)
If I were planning on a gunfight, I wouldn't take 9mm, .45, or ANY handgun caliber, I'd have a rifle and lots of ammunition. For unforeseen circumstances, any duty loading* will do just fine, assuming you are capable of wielding your chosen defensive weapons.


* (duty load = modern HP in 9x19, fo-tay, .45, .357sig, .38spl, .357mag, etc ... maybe 9x18mak and 7.62x25 if that's your thing)

Any story about how a 9mm wasn't effective and a .45 would be contains two things:
-A secondhand story
-An assumption of how it would have gone with one very small variable changed

Anyone can cherry-pick stories to demonstrate why their favorite caliber is best, but duty loadings have roughly the same available energy and are designed to do the same job, about 12" of penetration in ballistics gel with reliable expansion.

The overpenetration will help to incapacitate others in the group.

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Seriously? You're going to take the neat small wounds of ball ammo (regardless of caliber) rather than the messy torn-up wounds of an expanding round ... all for the possibility that you might have someone lined up just right to catch the overpenetrating round?

Carry Tokarev or 10mm if you want over-penetration.

^ it was a joke :banghead:

The energy a handgun projectile expands inside a human being is too small to be useful as a variable in determining effectiveness. The efficiency of the wound is the only thing that matters. Bigger wounds are more efficient. Wounds through vital areas are more efficient. Dumping 500 foot pounds into a non vital area will not stop a determined attacker from shooting at you.

I carry as big of a caliber as my choice of "sized" CCW can handle. Some smaller guns require weaker ammo to shoot well. I see no point to 9mm in a fullsized gun.

My Mouses are: .380 (Corbon is my choice in this caliber)
Sub compact: 9mm or .38 J-frame (Federal HXT ot EFMJ)
Medium: .40 (Speer Lawman, Federal HXT 180gn)
Medium to fullsize: .45 ( Winchester 230gn)

I put all of those into my CCW quiver, my CCW needs change alot.

I do feel better with .40 or .45 than I do with 9mm or .38. I'm more confident that the heavier rounds will be less likely to get deflected by auto glass, heavy clothes, or a bone.

Assuming I'm hitting a target at a bad angle, I have more confidence that a heavy round will be less likely to skip off of a bone and into a less vital area. Where a heavy .45 may crush right through. Still that's a shot placement problem, but you have to be that much better with shot placement and 9mm. May not be much, but every little bit counts.

Also there is no promise that 9mm will expand. 9mm FMJ is near useless, but .45 FMJ isn't too bad.

Bottom line: If you have passed advanced pistol classes and shoot on a regular basis, you should be plenty lethal with a 9mm. In fact you may have a huge advantage.

Aim here, hit here, get good results.

Caliber not very important.

My father served in europe is WWII. Though he owned a 45 aquired during the war and brought home, he also owned a Radom 9mm, and seemed to have a good deal of respect for the 9mm cartridge...and this was in the days before JHP's were common.
While I load Ranger 127gn +P+ in my Browning HiPower, I also carry a mag of good 124gn FMJ, and I wouldnt feel underarmed with it.

rab

Power of suggestion worked on me. I had to go pop the corn and grab a cold one before I could read any further.

We pray that we never have to pull our pistol but if we do we bet our life we can stop the threat. At that time we want the most accurate, powerful, life destroying bullet made for our pistol. Then we better put those bullets where they will stop the threat immediately. Practice like your life depends on it with the same described ammunition.

Verdun59 - "I'm eagerly awaiting this discussion, I've got popcorn and beer," put me on the floor laughing. Best post this month!