Perseverance
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Aim here, hit here, get good results.
Caliber not very important.
+2000
Learn to shoot, hit where it counts, bring down your target. This is one beat to death discussion...
How effective has 9mm FMJ proven to be in self defense?
- Thread starter FIVETWOSEVEN
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+2000
Learn to shoot, hit where it counts, bring down your target. This is one beat to death discussion...
chieftain
Member
How many former German soldiers did you talk to about being hit by the 45acp and walked back to their aid stations?
Did you talk to any of the American troops that were killed by German 9mm fire? Or Germans killed and wounded by British 9mm fire, or Russians killed and wounded by 9mm fire? Probably not, sorry just trying to make a point. The 9mm is still the leading sub Machine gun round world wide today. Why? It works and works well.
My point is just that. Wounded German soldiers tell the same story. Thankful for the poor penetration of the 45acp round, compared to the 9mm superior penetration.
Understand that as I write this, there is a Springfield Professional sitting on my hip. I am not in the least anti 45 or 9. I like them for what they are. Either will do what all week cheese handgun rounds can do (and they ALL are weak), if I do what I need to do with my handgun when necessary.
Both cartridges have been around successfully for over 100 years. There is a reason, they both work. In that 100 years no one has ever been able to "PROVE" one 9mm or 45acp FMJ cartridge "better" than the other, NO ONE.
If you like the 1911 platform, use a 45acp, if you like the SIG, Beretta, Glock, S&W etc.... use a 9mm. I still ain't figured out a reason for the 40 S&W. Nothing seriously wrong with it, and obviously many folks I respect like it, I am still looking for a reason for it though.
Go figure.
Fred
Did you talk to any of the American troops that were killed by German 9mm fire? Or Germans killed and wounded by British 9mm fire, or Russians killed and wounded by 9mm fire? Probably not, sorry just trying to make a point. The 9mm is still the leading sub Machine gun round world wide today. Why? It works and works well.
My point is just that. Wounded German soldiers tell the same story. Thankful for the poor penetration of the 45acp round, compared to the 9mm superior penetration.
Understand that as I write this, there is a Springfield Professional sitting on my hip. I am not in the least anti 45 or 9. I like them for what they are. Either will do what all week cheese handgun rounds can do (and they ALL are weak), if I do what I need to do with my handgun when necessary.
Both cartridges have been around successfully for over 100 years. There is a reason, they both work. In that 100 years no one has ever been able to "PROVE" one 9mm or 45acp FMJ cartridge "better" than the other, NO ONE.
If you like the 1911 platform, use a 45acp, if you like the SIG, Beretta, Glock, S&W etc.... use a 9mm. I still ain't figured out a reason for the 40 S&W. Nothing seriously wrong with it, and obviously many folks I respect like it, I am still looking for a reason for it though.
Go figure.
Fred
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
A friends Grandfather had one eye from a 8mm mauser round. The bullet was still in his head. Dont think anyone will say the 8mm isnt a stopper.....
It seems there are 1,000,000 ways to get hit in a war, and fortunately a select few arent leathal.
It seems there are 1,000,000 ways to get hit in a war, and fortunately a select few arent leathal.
Zombiphobia
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ya know, as long as they person you're shooting isn't dooped up on some serious stuff like PCP or other nerve numbing, super-human BS drugs... they're gonna feel being shot with anything even as small as a .22.
BUT, assuming they're pretty doped up and can't feel it, or crazy enough to not care, then you have a whole new ball game. My assumption is that this is the reason why most 9mm's have a much higher magazine capacity than a .45. If the first one or two doesn't stop them, you have plenty more to follow up and not much recoil.
But if you're really bent on having the biggest most damaging bullet you can find. There's the .50AE and 500 S&Wmag. The concussion alone ought to incapacitate any other accomplices with cerebral hemerages.
You'll have entry wounds the size of golf balls and exit wounds the size of an escalade.
There won't be any bleed-out peroid. There won't be any law-suit from the wounded assailant.
There won't be any need to shoot him twice(if you hit him). There won't be any concern about what drugs he's on because if the bullet hits, it won't matter.
He'll be dead before he hits the ground.
John Moses Browning invented the 1911.. but God invented instant death from the .50 caliber bullet.
Please note the attempt at humor.
I happen to know for a fact a 9mm ball round won't drop a red-nose pit bull in his tracks, but he'll feel it for sure and go the other way. I imagine it'll be about the same on humans.
I use HP only now for SD.
but either way, it's called "Parabellum" for a reason. It's designed for war, and inw ar, we like our enemies to be in speaking condition to tell us where their buddies are hiding. A wounded enemy soldier is more useful than a dead enemy soldier.
BUT, assuming they're pretty doped up and can't feel it, or crazy enough to not care, then you have a whole new ball game. My assumption is that this is the reason why most 9mm's have a much higher magazine capacity than a .45. If the first one or two doesn't stop them, you have plenty more to follow up and not much recoil.
But if you're really bent on having the biggest most damaging bullet you can find. There's the .50AE and 500 S&Wmag. The concussion alone ought to incapacitate any other accomplices with cerebral hemerages.
You'll have entry wounds the size of golf balls and exit wounds the size of an escalade.
There won't be any bleed-out peroid. There won't be any law-suit from the wounded assailant.
There won't be any need to shoot him twice(if you hit him). There won't be any concern about what drugs he's on because if the bullet hits, it won't matter.
He'll be dead before he hits the ground.
John Moses Browning invented the 1911.. but God invented instant death from the .50 caliber bullet.
Please note the attempt at humor.
I happen to know for a fact a 9mm ball round won't drop a red-nose pit bull in his tracks, but he'll feel it for sure and go the other way. I imagine it'll be about the same on humans.
I use HP only now for SD.
but either way, it's called "Parabellum" for a reason. It's designed for war, and inw ar, we like our enemies to be in speaking condition to tell us where their buddies are hiding. A wounded enemy soldier is more useful than a dead enemy soldier.
BADUNAME13
Member
Sorry.
I've shot people repeatedly in the chest with a 5.56... That's what it takes.
One doesn't.
Pistol is lesser.
If your gonna tell me 'accuracy'
I have a test for you:
Take a 3x5 index card (About the size of a 'kill' for the heart or cranial cavity)
Attach it to a car tire.
Have someone roll it down a hill.
WHILE running (Because if you are not moving in a gunfight... or hiding behind cover your gonna get hit)
Hit that playing card with your one round.
It's STILL not dealing with someone shooting at you.
But it's as close to real as I can come up with.
IF you are accurate in that...
Teach me.
...I'll take capacity and power thankyouverymuch...
I'm not that good.
mljdeckard
Member
Charles T -if that were the case, you are doing much better than real-world averages. Most people don't stop when hit with a single handgun bullet. If I am trying to drop 19 people, I want something other than a pistol to do it with. The Beretta on my hip right now holds 15+1.
As for shot placement, of course we all want to get good COM hits, but again, real life won't always let you. The target is moving and fighting back, plenty of people miss entirely.
The real world difference between defensive rounds is limited. I don't tell people that with a 9mm, they are going to get killed because the bad guy won't even feel them and will keep attacking. I tell people with a .45, no it won't make people fall over and die instantly. But in a gunfight, I want all the advantages I can get. Expanding big bullets do more damage, plain and simple.
As for shot placement, of course we all want to get good COM hits, but again, real life won't always let you. The target is moving and fighting back, plenty of people miss entirely.
The real world difference between defensive rounds is limited. I don't tell people that with a 9mm, they are going to get killed because the bad guy won't even feel them and will keep attacking. I tell people with a .45, no it won't make people fall over and die instantly. But in a gunfight, I want all the advantages I can get. Expanding big bullets do more damage, plain and simple.
Philo_Beddoe
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- Feb 10, 2009
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- 328
Impossible to know unless you happen to own a time machine.
I happen to think a .355 diameter bullet will do less damage then a .452 diameter one, but there are way to many variables in a shooting to say that a 45 would have suceeded when a 9mm failed.
W.E.G.
Member
It is comforting to know that this REALLY IS a 9mm vs. 45 thread.
I can get to sleep now.
I can get to sleep now.
Spec ops Grunt
Member
George Orwell survived being shot in the throat with a rifle in the Spanish Civil War.
BADUNAME13
Member
Ummm.... You MIGHT want to rethink that.
Physics....
I carry a 9mm because (As another posted already pointed out) I Can TRAIN more with it (Ammo costs)
But I would NOT be comfortable with FMJ.
Fortunately there's this company called Corbon...
sidheshooter
Member
Nomad, that drill (the tire, not the 5.56) sounds like a fun way to spend an afternoon.
---
Parts of this thread remind me of the old joke about a 911 call with 9mm ball:
"I need to report a shooting at 1st and main... And 2nd and main... And, it looks like 3rd and main too..."
---
Parts of this thread remind me of the old joke about a 911 call with 9mm ball:
"I need to report a shooting at 1st and main... And 2nd and main... And, it looks like 3rd and main too..."
~Boomslang~
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These are always rediculous questions. Look at it this way. How effective would it be in changing your plans in assuting me for the night, if I stuck a piece of 1/4" Rebar through your sternum...... Stop watching movies, and reading speculative gun magazines, or goofy "Street reports". Gunshots suck, they hurt really,really,really,really bad. You will want attention from the nearest E.R. fast, continuing their skulldugery will be the last thing on a criminals mind. Aim well, shoot first, hit first. You win .380 or whatever.
BADUNAME13
Member
What you have to ask yourself is:
"For what"
On a 500 yard rifle range (With an M16A4 or M16A2 I'll give you 8 or 9 outa 10 hits consistantly)
No..
Man sized targets ~ 300...
(Although several people have done realistic testing out to 500)
I think so.
sidheshooter:
Let me know how it goes.
We have NO idea what the circumstances, Mental state, or drug use (Or numbers) of 'our situation' may be.
Use the best you can.
NWCP
Member
A pistol is a last resort weapon at best. It's for up close and personal shooting. Given our druthers we'd all druther have a semi auto rifle, or a decent pump 12 GA shotgun when confronting a determined bad guy. At least I would. That's why my old 12 GA Mossberg is easy to get to in the house. I have a 9mm in the nightstand, or on my person. It happens to be loaded with Golden Sabers, but if all I had was FMJ so be it. Run what you brung as long as you're comfortable with it. Shot placement is paramount regardless the caliber of the weapon you're using. 9mm, 40 S&W, or .45ACP... they're all going to leave a mark. It's up to your ability as to where the mark is and how effective it is. Fortunately most criminals aren't looking to get shot at.A good dog and a loaded pistol, or shotgun can be quite effective when looking to defend one's own. The dog lets you know you're not alone and the weapon is a rapid reminder that the intruder is not welcomed under your roof.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
What is it that chieftan might want to rethink about the physics? Are you saying that somebody has proven one cartridge to be better than the other?
For God's sake, don't keep such insights to yourself. Based on the discussion in this thread alone, you seem to be the only one who knows this information.
Examination of .45 and 9mm side by side should sort things out in ones mind. It's wrong to put down cartridge because one can't handle extra recoil force involved in shooting it. I like when some mention that most military forces use 9x19 as standard issue side arm. Ok, but isn't handgun on officers belt just a proverbial "hood ornament"?
My opinion may not be based on fact, But facts in this area are few and far between.
With FMJ 9mm would have no disadvantage over a .45 as long as both shots were in the same spot, And some would say a 9mm would be more advantageous due to Hydrostatic shock with its higher velocity.
If all the stories of survival in WWII of GI's being hit by multiple rounds, Which i see no reason to doubt would most likley put Hydrostatic shock into the category of a "Myth" in handgun calibers.
Both rounds will not expand or dump much energy and pass threw the body and only damage a small path along its way. The larger bullet has a slight chance to damage a bit more as long as soft tissue is all thats hit.
If you add in a shot that hits bone both will deflect with the 9mm more so and the .45 being lessor and possibly crushing more bone which WOULD send bone fragments threw the cavity inflicting more damage. A 9mm would tend to deflect more and just change course with a 50/50% chance of deflecting or fragmenting bone also.
Seeing both will most likley exit creating 2 holes bleed out would happen faster with the round that put more holes in the body. The hole size upon exit wont vary much imo.
Ill admit to being 100% .45acp biased but only with HP's, FMJ the field is more even and round count would be more important. Of course with shot placement being king and even then i dont believe it matters if you shoot a BG's heart with a 9mm or .45
If possible the US Military would be much better off switching from a fmj too a lead flatnose with a soft enough lead that will deform enough to expand but not fall apart.
I know if i was a soldier in todays Military id do my best to get HP's into my weapon and if not id make sure i never have to rely on that weapon.
Hollow points change the game to a whole new level imo.
FMJ will kill you with 1 shot or 10 shots, But most likley not right away unless you have a critical hit and most would die within hours or days and not right away and many wouldn't even be stopped with up to 10 rounds if they weren't placed just right.
With FMJ 9mm would have no disadvantage over a .45 as long as both shots were in the same spot, And some would say a 9mm would be more advantageous due to Hydrostatic shock with its higher velocity.
If all the stories of survival in WWII of GI's being hit by multiple rounds, Which i see no reason to doubt would most likley put Hydrostatic shock into the category of a "Myth" in handgun calibers.
Both rounds will not expand or dump much energy and pass threw the body and only damage a small path along its way. The larger bullet has a slight chance to damage a bit more as long as soft tissue is all thats hit.
If you add in a shot that hits bone both will deflect with the 9mm more so and the .45 being lessor and possibly crushing more bone which WOULD send bone fragments threw the cavity inflicting more damage. A 9mm would tend to deflect more and just change course with a 50/50% chance of deflecting or fragmenting bone also.
Seeing both will most likley exit creating 2 holes bleed out would happen faster with the round that put more holes in the body. The hole size upon exit wont vary much imo.
Ill admit to being 100% .45acp biased but only with HP's, FMJ the field is more even and round count would be more important. Of course with shot placement being king and even then i dont believe it matters if you shoot a BG's heart with a 9mm or .45
If possible the US Military would be much better off switching from a fmj too a lead flatnose with a soft enough lead that will deform enough to expand but not fall apart.
I know if i was a soldier in todays Military id do my best to get HP's into my weapon and if not id make sure i never have to rely on that weapon.
Hollow points change the game to a whole new level imo.
FMJ will kill you with 1 shot or 10 shots, But most likley not right away unless you have a critical hit and most would die within hours or days and not right away and many wouldn't even be stopped with up to 10 rounds if they weren't placed just right.
The reality is the difference between 45 ball and 9mm ball is such that their performance overlaps to the extent that probably no one could construct a scientifically valid test to prove things one way or another. The infamous Marshall and Sanow test used small data sets and unrealistic sampling. The much vaunted Thomson Laguard tests relied on shooting animals and cadavers.
If one looks at survival rates in ERs, the number of times hit seems to be the biggest factor in survival since it increases the chance that something vital will be hit.
As noted, there are plenty of people walking around after being hit with rifle bullets in the torso.
I wouldn't carry ball ammo in anything for a variety of reasons - ricochet being a big on of concern for a civilian CCW. If I were forced to carry ball, I admit I'd want a bigger bullet. But I can give no statistically valid argument in favor, juts a general gut feeling.
If one looks at survival rates in ERs, the number of times hit seems to be the biggest factor in survival since it increases the chance that something vital will be hit.
As noted, there are plenty of people walking around after being hit with rifle bullets in the torso.
I wouldn't carry ball ammo in anything for a variety of reasons - ricochet being a big on of concern for a civilian CCW. If I were forced to carry ball, I admit I'd want a bigger bullet. But I can give no statistically valid argument in favor, juts a general gut feeling.
481
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chieftain: said:
Nomad said:
Double Naught Spy: said:
Guys,
Despite providing material for never-ending gun-rag debate, I really think that there is little objective difference to discuss here between both rounds. (the .45 ACP 230 grain FMJRN and the 9mm 124 grain FMJRN)
The .45 ACP 230 grain FMJRN @ 850 fps will produce a minimal temporary stretch cavity and a very narrow permanent crush cavity while (almost) guaranteeing "through-and-through" penetration with 29.7 inches of soft tissue penetration capability.
The 9mm 124 grain FMJRN @ 1275 fps (M882) will produce a minimal temporary stretch cavity and a very narrow permanent crush cavity while (almost) guaranteeing "through-and-through" penetration with 31.8 inches of soft tissue penetration capability.
I've been accused, and perhaps rightly so, for seeing things in purely "black-and-white" terms, but there appears to be very little practical difference between the two, at least from a "physics" perspective.
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speaksoftly
Member
I've missed this topic. It's been almost 30 minutes since it was last brought up. ;-) Maybe this time we'll come to a solution unlike the 3 million other times it was debated. :banghead:
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