cassandrasdaddy
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When shown a weapon
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The victim's wife, if her account is accurate, adds another big wrinkle. I think many of us have been assuming that the victim showed a gun during an argument and that the shooter drew his and fired. That may have been defensible. But now we have this:
According to this, Oates left the location of the argument, got his gun, came back, and shot the victim. I have yet to hear of an incident in which that occurred that did not result in a conviction.
Oates has reportedly claimed self defense, but based on public statements by the witnesses, I believe that it is very doubtful that he will even get a favorable jury instruction.
According to this, Oates left the location of the argument, got his gun, came back, and shot the victim. I have yet to hear of an incident in which that occurred that did not result in a conviction.
Oates has reportedly claimed self defense, but based on public statements by the witnesses, I believe that it is very doubtful that he will even get a favorable jury instruction.
2WheelsGood
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We're deciding this guy's guilt based on the account of the brother of the thug who showed a gun in the first place? And yes, if you brandish a firearm because your car is being towed FOR WHATEVER REASON, you're a thug. Something tells me the thug's brother is no more upstanding than the thug. Just sayin', at this point the driver is innocent until proven otherwise. Nobody really has any idea exactly what happened at this point.
Just out of curiosity, if you found out the tow truck driver was Massad Ayoob, would you give him the benefit of the doubt or would you still believe the brother?
Just out of curiosity, if you found out the tow truck driver was Massad Ayoob, would you give him the benefit of the doubt or would you still believe the brother?
Bonesinium
Member
After the last article, if the wife's account is correct in any way at all, then it would appear to be nothing shy of murder.
Harley Quinn
Member
If he shot the man in the back, and then shot him again
The shooter is not going to get bail IMHO... Wives are about as good a witness as a brother is, do you think, practiced
Same story???
Or maybe, it really happened that way??? Need another wits statement IMHO
Regards
The shooter is not going to get bail IMHO... Wives are about as good a witness as a brother is, do you think, practiced Same story???Or maybe, it really happened that way??? Need another wits statement IMHO
Regards
Massad would not have his myspace page.
Was showing the gun a thug move. Maybe. However, what if the tow truck driver said something like, after I hook up your car, I am going to beat your wetback arse. Then, showing the gun may not be such a thug act.
The facts will come out at the trial. My opinion means nothing to the end result. However, reading his description of himself, I tend to think it wasn't justifiable.
Was showing the gun a thug move. Maybe. However, what if the tow truck driver said something like, after I hook up your car, I am going to beat your wetback arse. Then, showing the gun may not be such a thug act.
The facts will come out at the trial. My opinion means nothing to the end result. However, reading his description of himself, I tend to think it wasn't justifiable.
cassandrasdaddy
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cops would have heard him say felice navidad. which would make wife more credible. and some morons are too stupid to shut up.
Black Butte
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Oates should have walked away. The pride associated with booting a minivan is not worth the owner's life.
Gouranga
Member
The both should have walked away. There is no reason a weapon should have been brought into a property dispute.
In the case of the dude showing his concealed firearm, if I show my piece to anyone, it is to remove it from the holster and more than likely fire it because the 3 critical conditions for use of lethal force have been met. Before that though, I will use the option to deescalate, then OC spray before pulling a weapon. I don't care how much a thug or nimrod a person is, I do not relish the idea of killing someone. I will if given no other option but BASED ON THE INFO IN THE ARTICLES GIVEN in this thread, it is looking pretty bad for this guy.
Course I can also see, if I was the tow truck guy, had this guy and his brother in my face, maybe threatening me (who knows what was said), then one of them "shows is firearm", depending how what that means, I may be pulling weapon. How did he show it? Did he pull up his shirt? Did he put his hand on it? Who knows. That will be for the jury to sort out. If that Tow truck driver had the option of leaving though, he should have taken it and called the cops. Either way, this is going to cost him a LOT.
Though I do disagree with one of the wifes statements "Self defense is one bullet. He put 6 bullets in my husband." Self defense is firing as much as it takes to end a threat. That may be 1 or 6 shots.
In the case of the dude showing his concealed firearm, if I show my piece to anyone, it is to remove it from the holster and more than likely fire it because the 3 critical conditions for use of lethal force have been met. Before that though, I will use the option to deescalate, then OC spray before pulling a weapon. I don't care how much a thug or nimrod a person is, I do not relish the idea of killing someone. I will if given no other option but BASED ON THE INFO IN THE ARTICLES GIVEN in this thread, it is looking pretty bad for this guy.
Course I can also see, if I was the tow truck guy, had this guy and his brother in my face, maybe threatening me (who knows what was said), then one of them "shows is firearm", depending how what that means, I may be pulling weapon. How did he show it? Did he pull up his shirt? Did he put his hand on it? Who knows. That will be for the jury to sort out. If that Tow truck driver had the option of leaving though, he should have taken it and called the cops. Either way, this is going to cost him a LOT.
Though I do disagree with one of the wifes statements "Self defense is one bullet. He put 6 bullets in my husband." Self defense is firing as much as it takes to end a threat. That may be 1 or 6 shots.
seal
Member
Brandishing is considered threat of force in some places. Same way showing a gun in a robbery makes it armed. However due to the roles they had tow truck driver vs he should have backed away if possible killing in the name of a boot seems silly. If he backed you into your truck and said take off the boot or die... diff story. Problem two is there is a witness. Id like to be able to tell the cop he said ill kill you explicative and reached for a weapon not he flashed it. Definately a borderline case that's hard to armchair.
No, the jury will decide whether he is guilty, based upon the totality of the evidence presented and admitted.
Well, one cannot shoot someone else because he is a thug.
It does not matter now, but there remains the possibility that the victim was justified in reaching for his gun, and elected not to draw after a change in the dynamics of the situation.
That is correct.
The defendant has already admitted shooting the victim on purpose. It is now incumbent upon him to provide evidence supporting his claims on the following:
He had reasonable grounds to believe he or she was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, AND
he actually believed that he was in such imminent danger, AND
the danger was such that the could only save himself by the use of deadly force, AND
he used no more force than was necessary.
he actually believed that he was in such imminent danger, AND
the danger was such that the could only save himself by the use of deadly force, AND
he used no more force than was necessary.
Failing that, or if the state provides sufficient evidence to the contrary on any of these points, he will most likely be convicted.
Based upon what has been reported to date, the state does not believe that credible evidence on these factors exists, and/or does believe that evidence exists to counter any such evidence that the defendant may provide.
Regardless of whether the tow truck operator believed that the showing of the gun put him in danger, it will likely come down to whether he had no alternative but to shoot, and that will most likely hinge on whether he did in fact go and get his gun and come back, and to whether he used excessive force.
Continued debate based upon what has been brought forth to date is unlikely to be helpful. Should any other information that may shed light on the case come up, let's share it here.
Onward Allusion
Member
...and who said only diamonds are forever?! A strategy and tactic for all y'all, don't post on the Internet what you don't want your grandma to know.
JW2
Member
This article has much more info than most of the previous ones presented here:
http://www.thestate.com/2010/12/28/1622303/tow-truck-driver-arrested-victim.html
http://www.thestate.com/2010/12/28/1622303/tow-truck-driver-arrested-victim.html
Tomcat47
Member
I Found Some Things of Interest...
First: Simply Showing me Your Gun would Not Produce Mine!
And JW2...yours is the same story I read and it paints a much different picture.
Now:
Statute RE: Removing and Impounding Vehicles in SC
The Department of Public Safety consistent with sate laws providing for said towing and booting shall be responsible for towing and booting under the following conditions:
(a) Parked in such a way as to constitute serious hazard; or
(b) That impedes vehicular or pedestrian traffic movement;
(c) That impedes the operation of emergency equipment;
(d) Parked in a fire lane or by a fire plug;
(e) Parked in a restricted parking area without a valid permit or decal; or
(f) If three or more unpaid traffic violations have been issued against said vehicle.
Owners of such vehicles assume all risks involved and will be required to pay all costs involved in the removing, impounding, or storing of such vehicles.
However In SC these areas must be posted with signage with No Parking and those restrictions if it is between certain times!
My Brother who is Tow Truck Operator Says that typically laws regarding repossession apply in any tow situation of this kind....repo,boot,etc.
which is this: (paraphrased)
•... the process must be what South Carolina law defines as peaceful. If a consumer approaches the individual attempting to repossess a car through a self-help (non-judicial) process, the person attempting to take the car should stop the process and leave the vehicle alone. South Carolina law considers verbal objection sufficient to render the process not peaceful.
I ask my brother what he would have done? He carries as well! He said he would have (providing there was signage)..if he had showed him the gun,(but not pulled it out)...he would have said Give me a minute and I will remove the boot! He would have already had tag number on record and would have removed the boot and called police and told them he showed a weapon in a threatening manner, and would have turned it over to authorities and civil court. He said its a no brainer, and that he would have followed the rules and not have provoked him to that point anyway.
Further reading on this particular Tow Truck Driver reveals a bad scene.....He actually shot at someone else and stray bullets entered a home where children were sleeping! and there are other records that would imply to me that this guy is reckless.
From news reports I have read the Tow driver is done...he will see a lot of time behind bars. Eye witnesses claim he shot him execution style with last shot?
Bad Situation....and liberals will run with it.....and in a manner to make it the guns fault...or them CCW people!
First: Simply Showing me Your Gun would Not Produce Mine!
And JW2...yours is the same story I read and it paints a much different picture.
Now:
Statute RE: Removing and Impounding Vehicles in SC
The Department of Public Safety consistent with sate laws providing for said towing and booting shall be responsible for towing and booting under the following conditions:
(a) Parked in such a way as to constitute serious hazard; or
(b) That impedes vehicular or pedestrian traffic movement;
(c) That impedes the operation of emergency equipment;
(d) Parked in a fire lane or by a fire plug;
(e) Parked in a restricted parking area without a valid permit or decal; or
(f) If three or more unpaid traffic violations have been issued against said vehicle.
Owners of such vehicles assume all risks involved and will be required to pay all costs involved in the removing, impounding, or storing of such vehicles.
However In SC these areas must be posted with signage with No Parking and those restrictions if it is between certain times!
My Brother who is Tow Truck Operator Says that typically laws regarding repossession apply in any tow situation of this kind....repo,boot,etc.
which is this: (paraphrased)
•... the process must be what South Carolina law defines as peaceful. If a consumer approaches the individual attempting to repossess a car through a self-help (non-judicial) process, the person attempting to take the car should stop the process and leave the vehicle alone. South Carolina law considers verbal objection sufficient to render the process not peaceful.
I ask my brother what he would have done? He carries as well! He said he would have (providing there was signage)..if he had showed him the gun,(but not pulled it out)...he would have said Give me a minute and I will remove the boot! He would have already had tag number on record and would have removed the boot and called police and told them he showed a weapon in a threatening manner, and would have turned it over to authorities and civil court. He said its a no brainer, and that he would have followed the rules and not have provoked him to that point anyway.
Further reading on this particular Tow Truck Driver reveals a bad scene.....He actually shot at someone else and stray bullets entered a home where children were sleeping! and there are other records that would imply to me that this guy is reckless.
From news reports I have read the Tow driver is done...he will see a lot of time behind bars. Eye witnesses claim he shot him execution style with last shot?
Bad Situation....and liberals will run with it.....and in a manner to make it the guns fault...or them CCW people!
orionengnr
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I cannot see any evidence that either of the two involved had CCW permits--am I missing something?
I am not a resident of SC and know nothing of their laws. I can't seem to see some of the linked material, perhaps because I am not a Facebook member.
From a purely pragmatic view, in absence of a lot of evidence, if someone shows me a pistol, that is an implied threat...and perhaps a good bit more.
Not judging one way or another, because I am working in a vacuum.
Tomcat47
Member
I STILL HOLD TRUE THAT SOMEONE SHOWING ME A HOLSTERED FIREARM WOULD NOT MAKE ME PRESENT MINE!
One report claimed the deceased had a CC permit?
This is going to be a real long case for 12 people for sure.
It is a shame someone lost there life over a stupid car! and that remark is aimed at both parties in this case.
My brother who I stated was a Tow Truck driver said he has had interesting situations and if any conflict arises...he involves the Law immediately. He has always said there is no tow bill worth dying over, or having to possibly kill someone over it. He had rather go home to his kids!
Most likey if the law had been called, the boot would have been removed, a bill given to the illegally parked, and the law would have told the tow truck driver and the car owner to go to civil court.
also another point...It has been stated that the Tow Truck driver has been in many disputes regarding his tactics and exuberent fees. The Home Owners assoc. should have possibly limited fees and/or found a new tow service and possibly when a dispute of this nature arises it should have possibly been billed to his brother who was in HOA and it could have been taken to the HOA and resolved or paid with tow service. He knew the rules, I guess?
Again 12 people are going to pull there hair out on this one...and probably miss alot of work!
One report claimed the deceased had a CC permit?
This is going to be a real long case for 12 people for sure.
It is a shame someone lost there life over a stupid car! and that remark is aimed at both parties in this case.
My brother who I stated was a Tow Truck driver said he has had interesting situations and if any conflict arises...he involves the Law immediately. He has always said there is no tow bill worth dying over, or having to possibly kill someone over it. He had rather go home to his kids!
Most likey if the law had been called, the boot would have been removed, a bill given to the illegally parked, and the law would have told the tow truck driver and the car owner to go to civil court.
also another point...It has been stated that the Tow Truck driver has been in many disputes regarding his tactics and exuberent fees. The Home Owners assoc. should have possibly limited fees and/or found a new tow service and possibly when a dispute of this nature arises it should have possibly been billed to his brother who was in HOA and it could have been taken to the HOA and resolved or paid with tow service. He knew the rules, I guess?
Again 12 people are going to pull there hair out on this one...and probably miss alot of work!
macadore
Member
If that's true, it sounds premeditated. In any case, it was a bad move by both parties. When you threaten someone with a firearm, you have given that person a reason to shoot you. Of course, if you let the threatened person walk away, the person forfeits the reason to shoot. This is a double Darwin award.
In this case if all the statements to what happened are accurate then the truck driver is dead wrong. If he had the opportunity to leave he should have done so and called the police to report the brandishing of hte gun. Ho could wait for the guy to get locked up and then boot the car.
Cranky CJ
Member
Lots of conversation about the tow truck driver, but the lesson learned here is the wrecklessness of flashing your weapon to begin with.
Settling a parking ticket with guns, one guy dead and one guy going to prison. Lots of lives ruined over bravado. Just plain dumb.
Settling a parking ticket with guns, one guy dead and one guy going to prison. Lots of lives ruined over bravado. Just plain dumb.
Impureclient
Member
This story is simple.
Picture a Venn Diagram.
The big Circle is labeled "Self-important ignoramus".
A smaller circle inside is labeled "Tow truck driver".
Picture a Venn Diagram.
The big Circle is labeled "Self-important ignoramus".
A smaller circle inside is labeled "Tow truck driver".
Impureclient: Add to your Venn: "Another, self-deluded idiot with a gun in his waistband". While I find the circumstances and details reprehensible, this is a certain case of two individuals who were armed, that clearly, should NOT have been armed...
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