It's not a good idea to intervene in a domestic dispute

[Jeff White]

This thread is not about if it's the "right" thing to do. Not everyone shares the same values so let's keep the discussion on topic.

This thread is about the physical and legal consequences of intervening in a domestic dispute that happens in front of you. The physical consequences are obvious, you could be injured or worse for your trouble.

Legally, you could be arrested for all kinds of things if the "victim" changes his or her allegiance to protect the attacker. You could easily become the aggressor in the eyes of the law.

Here is a report from today's news:

Domestic dispute turns into road rage incident, St. Charles police say http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_c916e7ea-7fb0-5034-b971-eaf5449c62b1.html

ST. CHARLES • A 26-year-old man has been charged with two felonies after he got into a dispute with his girlfriend, then rammed into the pickup of a passerby who intervened and tried to take the woman to a police station, authorities said.............According to police, Shannon and his girlfriend got into an argument on Thursday while they were driving down Old Highway 94. The woman told Shannon to stop the vehicle, a 2001 Mitsubishi Galant, so she could get out, police said. He pulled into a parking lot at 1757 Old Highway 94.

The argument continued, and a man pulled up behind Shannon's car and asked the woman if everything was OK and if she needed a ride, police said. She was visibly upset and asked the man if he would take her to the police department because she was afraid of what Shannon would do, police said.

As the woman approached the passerby's pickup truck, Shannon came over and told the man that the situation was "between them and none of his business." Shannon then threatened the man, opened his trunk and began to rummage through, police said. Fearing that Shannon was getting a weapon, the woman got into the man's truck, and they drove away.

Shannon followed them off the lot and rammed the back of the man's pickup, a 2010 Nissan Titan, police said. Then Shannon drove along the side of the truck and intentionally swerved into it in an attempt to run the man and woman off the road, police said.

The man braked before further damage was done, and Shannon sped off, police said.

The "white knight" got himself in a bad situation that easily could have ended with himself and the woman he was trying to assist shot, stabbed, hit with a tire tool etc. As it was he ended up with damage to his vehicle that his insurance company might not cover since he initiated the situation.

 

[Grmlin]

I believe he made the correct decision, we have become a society of people that look away when things like that happen. Shannon is obviously unstable and most likely be charged with some form of assault. Even if the White knights insurance will not cover the damage, and I can't really see why they wouldn't unless he just had liability, Shannon's insurance or Shannon himself would be responsible for the repairs.

I let my wife stop me from getting involved in a less extreme situation many, many years ago, she wouldn't try to stop me now, she would either back me up or take the lead.

 

[LemmyCaution]

As it was he ended up with damage to his vehicle that his insurance company might not cover since he initiated the situation.

While I concur with everything else in your post, the quoted bit above seems to be a bit reaching.

While I've never met anyone willing to come to the defense of the insurance industry, for what should seem to be obvious reasons, underwriters are not stupid people. The optics of denying a claim to a good samaritan because he 'initiated the situation' (which is equine feces, and you know it- the 'situation' pre-existing was entirely his reason for stopping in the first place) are extraordinarily bad, and if made public would likely serve to alienate ~75% of the insurance market.

But otherwise, good points.

 

[Jeff White]

Hypothetical situation:
The "victim" decides for whatever reason (fear of Shannon when he gets out of jail, fear of losing Shannon, perhaps he provides most of her support, there are a thousand reasons she changes her mind) and turns on the "white knight". Now he's fighting both of them maybe facing charges he tried to abduct her.

Every cop has seen a domestic turn that way.

 

[SwaneeSR]

Well. When the good samaritan first intervened, he had no idea how agressive the male was going to get. Even so, i think the guy did the right thing and I hope I would do the same regardless of the consequences.

Wouldn't everyone of you hope you would get involved? If that was your daughter or sister, wouldn't you hope a guy would step in?

Hiding is easy. Doing the right thing, not so much.

 

[Jeff White]

No!!! I used to get paid to intervene in those situations and they were some of the most dangerous calls to handle.

He had no idea what he was getting into. If he wanted to get involved he could have called the police.

 

[SwaneeSR]

I agree, call the police. But the police are 10 minutes away. Isn't there a point that you would intervene?
When he swears at her?
When he slaps her?
When he belts her in the mouth?
When he stabs her?
When she runs bleeding to your truck door?

At what point do you do more than wait by the phone.

Not a good situation. True.

 

[fallout mike]

A female relative's live in boyfriend busted her daughters (who wasn't his) nose, lip, and eye. She was around 4. I wanted to beat him half to death. I decided to take them to the PD first. Good thing I did bc she denied it all and said the child fell down playing. I washed my hands of her after that. I would have been the one in jail for nothing bc she went back home to him.

 

[Jeff White]

I call the police and drive on. There is no point at which I would intervene.

It's easy for someone who hasn't had to handle domestic disturbances to think they should get involved. But I've been to too many where the victim turned on the police often as they were taking the attacker away in handcuffs.

These are very volatile situations and both sides are almost always highly emotionally charged. One or both parties are often intoxicated.

Unless it's your job, the best thing to do is stay out of it.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Domestics, good witness .....

A: I agree that in some cases it's best just to be a good witness & contact LE about what you see or what is going on in the fight-argument.
B: If the fight or dispute was violent I may intervene or assist the victim(going directly to a police office-sheriff's HQ).
C: don't expect the local LE deputies or officers who respond to be fully involved, . I've done security work in my urban area since 2000. I've seen many, many domestic disputes. I've never seen anyone arrested at the scene or cited-prosecuted for domestic violence. Not one. 0.

I'd be leery of people who use phrases like; wife, husband, married, engaged, etc. Some states have "common law" relationships or marriages others, like my state, do not.

I'd add too in many domestic events, alcohol or illegal drugs are involved.

 

[MedWheeler]

Unless it's your job, the best thing to do is stay out of it.

For oneself, quite possibly. For society, it may not be as clear, and evaluation of each situation, by each person witnessing, is probably what is more likely to happen, than is everyone adhering to the blanket statement of "never get involved."

For every story I read or hear of in which the "white night" suffers to a degree in which he regrets his intervention, I probably hear of or read ten or more in which such intervention likely made a true and drastic difference.

 

[DHJenkins]

Every cop, bouncer and bartender knows this 'joke': What do you get when you try to intervene in a couple's dispute?

Attacked.

You're just as likely to get assaulted by the person you're trying to help as the person you think is the problem, so leave it alone and call someone who gets paid to deal with it.

 

[besafe2]

As a former leo I would not get involved. I would call 911 & give them the best info I could. There is WAY TO MUCH that could go wrong here.

 

[R.W.Dale]

To be brutally honest 9 times in 10 both parties in these situations are going to be complete idiots (pardon my language) to which higher thinking process are a complete stranger.

It might be different if it involved a child. But two consenting adults....no way no how.

I go back to the axiom of my piece is to protect myself and MY family.

 

[Malamute]

If really concerned, call the police, and start taking video with your cell.

On another forum, a situation was related in which a couple were argueing at a gas station, the guy started slapping the woman around. A good samaritan, in his 60's or so, went to intervene. He was then attacked by the guy with a knife or box cutter, AND the woman attacked him, he staggered off and they hit him with their vehicle on the way out.

There were a couple instances mentioned elsewhere where the "fight" was a setup, meant to lure someone to get involved, then robbed.

ETA: found the gas station situation.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14843-When-to-get-involved

 

[JRH6856]

A: I agree that in some cases it's best just to be a good witness & contact LE about what you see or what is going on in the fight-argument.
B: If the fight or dispute was violent I may intervene or assist the victim(going directly to a police office-sheriff's HQ).
C: don't expect the local LE deputies or officers who respond to be fully involved, . I've done security work in my urban area since 2000. I've seen many, many domestic disputes. I've never seen anyone arrested at the scene or cited-prosecuted for domestic violence. Not one. 0.

I'd be leery of people who use phrases like; wife, husband, married, engaged, etc. Some states have "common law" relationships or marriages others, like my state, do not.

I'd add too in many domestic events, alcohol or illegal drugs are involved.

Have to concur with Rusty and Jeff on this. After working security for apartement complexes, I can say domestic disputes were the most dreaded calls whe had. Always dispatched at least two officers, and a supervisor if it was a known trouble address which several often were.

It seems the victims may call and want protection, but they want passive protection, not active. They hope your presence alone (or just the fact they called) will stop the violence. It most often doesn't, but if you take action to stop it, then you have gone to far and you are the agressor and the original agressor becomes a fellow victim.

DV victims are often like those who say they want a gun for protection but they would never load it or shoot anyone. :banghead:

 

[Leanwolf]

JEFF WHITE - "No!!! I used to get paid to intervene in those situations and they were some of the most dangerous calls to handle. ..."

I've known quite a few police officers in the past and I've never met one who did not hate to go on "Domestic Disturbance" calls.

L.W.

 

[Speedo66]

I'm off duty, see a guy dragging a woman down the street in an assaultive manner, both arguing with each other. I stopped, identified myself, and asked her if she needed help.

She verbally assaults me, tells me to mind my own F'ing business. Now get this, the guy apologies, tells her to stop it, that I stopped to help her, and she should be more respectful and thankful. She then turned on him and gave him a mouthful. I figured I'd had enough, they deserved each other, and left.

Now retired, I'd call it in, not get involved.

 

[MedWheeler]

On another forum, a situation was related in which a couple were argueing at a gas station, the guy started slapping the woman around. A good samaritan, in his 60's or so, went to intervene. He was then attacked by the guy with a knife or box cutter, AND the woman attacked him, he staggered off and they hit him with their vehicle on the way out

On yet another, a man arriving at a gas station heard horrific screaming as he exited his vehicle, and witnessed a man beating a bloodied woman who was lying on the ground at his feet. His weapon was a tire iron. The new arrival drew his sidearm and ordered the attacker to drop his weapon. The attacker complied, and went to the ground on the man's further commands. The gas station clerk allowed the woman, who had pulled herself to her feet, to enter, and he locked the doors.

Responding officers greeted the defender with nothing more than "Good job, sir. Holster your weapon, and we'll take it from here."

A tire iron on a woman can be pretty savage. It's quite likely the man in my quoted example was better prepared, both mentally and logistically, than the man in the one quoted above.

Again, each potential defender will evaluate on his or her own, each situation that they may encounter. No one on an internet discussion board (even a firearms-defense one), moderator or otherwise, ex-cop or not, will be able to determine that for them ahead of time. Just do as you are, putting the information out there so more will at least have some "education."

(Incidentally, we're also taught never to enter a burning structure to try to save another human being. People have died doing so. But, it seems almost every day I hear and see a story of someone being saved from a fire by another (non-FD) person.)

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I agree with Jeff.
Way back in 1982 one of our court officers got involved and ended up killing the man, who turned out to be a NYC police officer.
Both male and female were drunk and, when the smoked cleared, she claimed that our guy should have kept out of it because it was, " personal"
Now that we all have cell phones call the police if you want to get involved.
Yes, they may have slow response time since dispatchers know that many of these calls are pure BS.

 

[TimSr]

It's not always easy to tell the difference between a domestic dispute between two idiots and a criminal attack on an inncent victim. Extreme caution is always wise, but it does not mean your only options are to directly intervene, or turn your head and walk away.

Calling the police should be the first move, if time allows.

I'd certainly monitor the situation until they arrive if for no other reason than to be a good witness. Shoot video if possible. the abuser can still be prosectued without the victim's complaint. Sometimes laying on the horn, flashing your lights, and generally calling attention to the incident can end it. In most cases, direct intervention is probably not a good idea unless the situation becomes life threatening. When the tire iron or knife comes out, you might have to decide whether you're going to be a witness in a murder prosecution, or in an attempted murder prosecution.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

These situations are ones where Angels fear to tread. I always call it in and mind my business .

 

[Sheepdog1968]

No good deed goes unpunished. I would call police and let them resolve even if one sided blows were being exchanged.

 

[Saw-Bones]

A LEOs Tale

1977: I am dispatched to a domestic disturbance backed up by another unit. There is plenty of history for dispatching more than one officer to a “domestic”. The woman refers to herself as “wife” because she thinks she is by common law, but Florida did away with that in the early-seventies. The "wife" relates that her “husband” tried to strangle her with the electric cord attached to a laundry iron. It is an old iron whose wire was covered with an overlay of fabric of a plaid design… the same design that is apparent on her neck.

To resolve the problem we arrest the man for aggravated battery and proceed to remove him from the home. BUT WAIT!!! There goes the woman’s source of rent money, money for food for her and their kids, utility bills, etc. Now we have to subdue her because she has had a change of heart and is not going to let us take him. Now she is going to jail for battery on police officers and the kids are going to Child Services. Remember too that we are armed! Take the time to reflect what you are going to do as a non-LEO if you are so confronted.

2015: I am a retired orthopedist so I got to see some of these domestic dispute participants in my practice… mostly female, but a surprising number of males.

What would I do today? I would stay at safe distance, call the police and monitor with my cellphone camera. I am always armed and if I see one of the participants being subjected to great bodily harm or imminent death then I am going to act - that‘s my nature. I will mention here that all my assets are protected and I’m going to be absolutely sure that the evidence is available to avoid being charged criminally. Barring those protections to personal loss, my first obligation is to me and my family and the participants are on their own - children excepted.

 

[Mainsail]

As it was he ended up with damage to his vehicle that his insurance company might not cover since he initiated the situation.

Poor choice of words Jeff; he didn't initiate anything. Interfere? Sure. Interject? OK. But he didn't initiate it.

These sorts of threads and the answers therein have a degree of pointlessness. I don't understand the need to paint every situation with such a broad brush that one will say, "I will never..." or "I will always..." The thread title is appropriate, in that one should be aware of all the intricacies of situations that may require a response from others, but many of the replies are a little silly.

You do what you need to do for the situation at hand, and no two situations will ever be alike.