It's not a good idea to intervene in a domestic dispute

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i've completely ignored domestic situations in my neighborhood. i've heard people screaming, heard things thrown, followed by breaking glass, loud bangs, and then sudden silence. i'm not getting involved, call me selfish but i take priority. people need to solve their own problems, if they're too stupid to get out of a bad relationship, or too lazy to get a job so they can do so, then as far as i'm concerned they're darwin award winners and mean absolutely nothing to me.
 
domestic violence situations are hell for the cops to deal with, let alone a solitary person probably not trained in de-escalation practices...... proceed at your own risk.
 
Poor choice of words Jeff; he didn't initiate anything. Interfere? Sure. Interject? OK. But he didn't initiate it.

Mainsail, I disagree. He initiated contact. No one invited him to interfere. He could have simply kept driving and most likely no damage would have occurred to his vehicle. He could have called 911 and reported the situation and kept driving. But he didn't. He initiated the road rage incident and the ramming of his vehicle by intervening. He made a conscious decision to intervene.

He didn't initiate the fight between Shannon and his girlfriend, but he certainly initiated the road rage incident and the ramming of his vehicle because he chose to intervene.

Let's play what if:

What if he stopped to intervene and Shannon had produced a gun from the trunk and the "white knight" had produced his own weapon and killed Shannon? Now let's ask what if the "victim" suddenly felt a profound sense of loss at seeing her boyfriend bleeding out on the ground and told the police that the "white knight" threatened Shannon?

This is not an unlikely scenario. Back in the days when you could still bond out the same day for misdemeanor domestic battery I was always amazed at the number of times the "victim" was already at the jail with bond money when I arrived with the domestic partner. 30 minutes earlier the victim was cussing and saying she wanted the SOB in jail and hoped he never got out.

So yes, I am saying our unnamed "white knight" initiated the road rage incident when he made a conscious decision to intervene. It was his action that led to the reaction of having his vehicle rammed.
 
"a couple instances mentioned elsewhere where the "fight" was a setup, meant to lure someone to get involved, then robbed."

<sigh> the BGs are not leaving any stone unturned...
 
According to what I found on Google, the Good Samaritan in the case linked by besafe2 is an attorney, one of his specialties being criminal defense.
 
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I just re-read the opening lines in the OP. I apparently missed that point the first time around. I was off-thread topic by some margin in posts 11 and 19, and apologize.

I still think the point should be more like "..generally not a good idea to intervene, and here is some information as to why.." than "it's never a good idea."

How "good" an idea is to anyone, about anything, is entirely dependent on the desired outcome, the likelihood of that outcome taking place, and whether the desired outcome is worth the effort (and risks, if any) necessary to bring it about.
 
As an officer domestic disputes are some of the most dangerous calls we get. There is no way I would advocate a civilian intervening. There are so many ways that can go wrong. Call 911 and be a good witness.
 
MedWheeler,
Your posts were ok. The warning was against the judgement type posts that are often made in these threads. The posts where members accuse other members of being cowards or tearing down society if they don't post they would take action.
 
This is a great thread topic because it's an excellent thought-provoker and an entirely plausible scenario to find oneself in.

I like this site because it teaches me a lot and there's so many good people on here with great lessons to learn. Therefore I am truly listening to Jeff and others when you caution against intervening......but I don't think I could walk away.

If a woman was getting beat in front of me and I didn't try to help, I don't think I would like myself. I'm not trying to be a big tough guy here, I just feel like we are supposed to help when others can't help themselves.
 
How "good" an idea is to anyone, about anything, is entirely dependent on the desired outcome, the likelihood of that outcome taking place, and whether the desired outcome is worth the effort (and risks, if any) necessary to bring it about.

Moral behavior is seldom in the short-term interest of the moral actor. The majority of systems of morality, in fact, are quite explicit that the rewards for moral behavior come in the next life.

And, frequently, short-term self-interest is in direct conflict with moral behavior. It comes as little surprise that people who have been around the block a few times, and have seen scenarios play out repeatedly where short-term self-interest is neglected, tend to get cynical and regard others who still think in terms of morality as chumps and/or fools.

When persons charged with protecting the public interest by oath (a wholly moral proposition) begin to take on this attitude, it's generally a good idea that they retire from that profession, as Mr. White has admirably done.

The point being that Mr. White is correct that intervening in a domestic dispute is fraught with serious risk. He would not get involved, to the point where he would merely call the police and 'drive on' (in his words), and not even act as a witness. If there is an afterlife, Kitty Genovese will likely be having words with him. I don't suggest that Mr. White re-examine his views. That is not my prerogative. But I do suggest that, while Mr. White's experience as a law enforcement officer has many positive things to teach here, it also has some quite negative things to teach, as well.

As such, we need to consider that there are tactical and moral issues involved in being an armed citizen. Mr. White is an expert on one aspect. I'm skeptical regarding the other, given the topsy-turvy assertion that the choice to intervene on behalf of another is an initiation of a violent encounter. This is just about the apotheosis of victim blaming.

Doubtless, there are persons here who will state that this is a strategies and tactics sub-forum and, as such, my criticism above is both a personal attack on Mr. White, and off-topic. Perhaps that is technically correct. However, it's clear I'm not the only person here uncomfortable with the implications of Mr. White's advice, and I think it deserves comment.

In conclusion, I believe one should weigh both the tactical and moral aspects of any potentially negative social encounter. One should weigh them in advance, and let that thought guide one when making the decision whether or not to get involved. But that final decision needs to be made in the moment, by each individual, based on the immediate circumstances.
 
Moral behavior is seldom in the short-term interest of the moral actor. The majority of systems of morality, in fact, are quite explicit that the rewards for moral behavior come in the next life.

This is the Strategies, Tactics and Training Forum. We don't discuss what's moral here. I opened the discussion with this statement:

This thread is not about if it's the "right" thing to do. Not everyone shares the same values so let's keep the discussion on topic.

As such, we need to consider that there are tactical and moral issues involved in being an armed citizen.

Not here we don't! Moral issues are off topic here. Here we discuss the tactical and legal aspects of an issue. Threads that discuss the moral issues of an action usually degenerate into a long circular debate between two or more factions and often end up with tempers flaring and members suspended or banned. We have a lot of experience with allowing those kinds of discussions to run in the early years of THR. There are plenty of other places on the web where you can debate the moral issues that come with being an armed citizen.

In conclusion, I believe one should weigh both the tactical and moral aspects of any potentially negative social encounter. One should weigh them in advance, and let that thought guide one when making the decision whether or not to get involved. But that final decision needs to be made in the moment, by each individual, based on the immediate circumstances.

I agree. If I didn't, I wouldn't have started the thread. The purpose is to give people some knowledge of the tactical and legal aspects of taking action, so that they may make an educated decision based on their personal values. Tactical and legal on topic, moral aspects of any decision off topic! It's as simple as that.

This ends the discussion of what the correct moral choice should be. Any further discussion of what the correct moral choice should be will result in the thread being locked.
 
Neighborhood watch ...

I noted in another forum topic a few days ago about a recent incident I had at a friends house around 1100pm on a Sunday.
I was leaving out when I observed a young man standing by a vehicle with the ignition on(running) & the turn signal on; in the middle of the road. The male was on the sidewalk looking at the occupants of the vehicle.
My first consideration is that it might be a domestic dispute or fight, :uhoh: .
The "witness" informed me that it wasn't a traffic accident or fight but the driver being impaired. The young guy stated he called 911-fire dept so I advised him not to approach or get near the vehicle occupant just let the police officers or paramedics deal with it.
He agreed and I soon saw 2 fire trucks drive near the location. I left without incident.
I would not have become involved if the young guy was fighting with his wife or girlfriend but I would have stayed where I was & called law enforcement.

Distance = safety in most situations. ;)
If you are in a safe location you can make better choices.
 
The really big problem with intervening in any altercation among strangers is that you cannot know either what has already transpired or who is who.

You must have reason to believe (and in some jurisdictions, you had better not be wrong) that the person you are defending would in fact be lawfully justified in the use of deadly force to defend himself or herself under the circumstances. Unless you know what happened before you came along, you cannot support that belief.

Then you may be completely justified, ethically and legally, to intervene to stop someone from attacking another. But then, should the endangered party decide to forgive and forget, as in a case of domestic violence, you may end up holding the short straw, with both parties testifying against you.

It happens. Not a good situation.

If you do not know the apparent "victim" and if you do not know what led to the altercation, you assume not only physical risks--of death or crippling injury-but also the risk of civil suits and of criminal prosecution.

You will be on your own.
 
My friends and I were leaving a bar one night years ago and came across a man beating a woman. When we approached them to break it up, the woman, between punches she was receiving, told us this was none of our business. We walked away, figuring if that's what she wanted we weren't going to get involved.

When I worked as a LEO, I went on too many calls where the woman being beaten changed her story to support her boyfriend or husband, making us out to be the bad guys. There's no good answer here, and barring something extraordinary (more extraordinary than someone being beaten doesn't sound right as I type this), I'd recommend calling the police, who are equipped to deal with this and letting them handle it.
 
Saw-Bones touched a nerve for me, no pun intended, when he mentioned child victims. I was a child abuse prosecutor for a lot of years. It's not in my DNA to ignore battery on a child. If it's likely to meet the definition of child abuse or neglect, I'm going to feel strongly compelled to do something. This is because, to keep it on tactics/legal, there is a great likelihood, approaching certainty, that a small child who is being battered is the elusive innocent victim. Thus little chance I will misjudge the situation or face serious legal consequences. What the response is will depend on the circumstances. In situations with adults (or older teens), I have little confidence that I will have a clear enough understanding of the incident to undertake any intervention whose success would have an acceptable chance of outweighing the repercussions for me, and by extension, my wife and young children.
 
The next post that I delete for talking about right and wrong and the thread is done!

I was actually surprised it's still open. You put out your information, several others who agree with you shared a little more, and some of us opined that, depending on one's definition of "good" (as in "good idea") offered some counterpoints, which you also took into consideration. IN fact, each side seems to have taken elements of the other's into consideration. (Perhaps because some posts were deleted, I'm not sure there were any that were uncivil in the discussion.)

The rest of the thread is filler-material made up of anecdotes, some of which support one side, and some of which support the other, but none of which actually provides anything new.

Each side is "painting with a broad brush" their point as fact, leaving out compassion and morality as requested. But, without those two elements, what's left to discuss?
 
JMNSHO.

If this is a moral issue to you, you do not have the right mindset and are likely to get yourself killed.

Beyond making a 911 call I have no plans to do anything. You cannot possibly know what is going on.
 
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