interested in BP

Ballistol

Ballistol. It emulsifies with water.

BLACK POWDER - Dissolves black powder residues. Emulsifies with water. Mildly alkaline, neutralizes acids. Excellent patch lube.

http://www.ballistol.com/

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Lubed patches can be made with Ballistol using the method that's described below:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4172296&postcount=6

How many grains is good for a prime? Quick answer: ABOUT...2 grains...

See what your gun likes but as a general rule, about a half to 2/3rds full pan will work in most guns. There is much to do over covering the vent hole or not, just take it all in stride. While you are priming, have the cock at half cock, not full cock. If you are using one of the spring loaded primers with the little spout, don't stick it contact wise into the pan, it will get all funky really quick and stop dispensing powder. No biggy, just take it apart and clean it. But it will get all corroded and messy if not tended to.

Traditional muzzle loading is more akin to pitching horse-shoes than modern shooting. It has a high fuss-factor, but that's why it is a hobby and they are no longer standard military issue.

One thing I like about the old guns is, they teach you to have good disciplines, nay, they demand it. So if you become proficient with them, everything else is easier by comparison.

When you get your new rifle, I would recommend that you clean and polish up the bore with a flannel patch and some polish of your choice (I'm partial to "Flitz"). This will help with any sharp lands in the rifling and create a more glossy surface to prevent bonding of fouling in the bore. I also recommend using a bore guide on your rod to avoid damage at the crown. You swab these bores so much, the crown will soon get egg shaped if you don't keep the rod centered.

Make sure you fully seat the patched ball securely on the powder charge. BP is always shot as a compression load, to do othewise will cause damage. If it is humid, don't be surprised to get black soup fouling after a few shots. Keep a rag handy and do lots of wiping. Keep that ignition path clear and dry.

A cleaning jag is also one of those necessary items that can be problematic. Use a patch that's too tight with it and the jag can get wedged in the bore while trying to pull it back out.
Use one that's too loose and the patch will fall off.
Then an item called a patch worm is needed to fish out the lost patch down inside the bore.
That's a ramrod accessory with 2 spiral wire hooks that are designed to grab on to the loose patch.
No doubt some folks prefer using a patch worm to swab their barrel with, but the wire hooks can bend or pull out on some of them.
Even a shotgun size looped patch holder won't hold a patch large enough to fit very tight in a larger bore and won't clean effectively.
I use an undersize .41 jag with thick home cut patches. But a .45 might work well in a .50 also. I fold the patches over 2/3/4 times so that they fit nice and tight in the bore. It can be unfolded and refolded to expose a clean side and swabbed with several times.
With an undersize jag, the whole works won't get stuck in the bore nearly as easily.
I would rather fish a lost patch out of the bore than have my jag and ramrod get stuck, especially with a flintlock.
That reminds me, a ball puller or CO2 powered ball expelling device will make it easier in case you dry ball. That happens when one forgets to put in the powder before ramming the ball. Notice that I said "when" and not "if".
Then the ball will need to be extracted if a little powder can't be coaxed into the vent hole to fire the ball out.
So far, a jag, a patch worm, ball puller and/or CO2 discharger for when there's a dry ball.
A vent pick is used to keep the vent clear.
And a fouling scraper is used to help clean powder fouling out of the breech plug. But since every gun has a powder chamber with a different shape and dimensions, choosing the right breech plug scraper requires becoming familar with the shape of the gun's powder chamber. Some are flat, some dished, some deep and narrow, so the fouling scrapers have different shapes. And there are wire brushes to clean fouling out of the breech too.
If possible, it's desirable for one's ramrod accessories to fit onto an extended length cleaning rod or range rod that has a handle of some sort. In case they don't some thread adaptors can help each of those accessories fit onto the rod.
There are handles that can be added to a ramrod, some just slip on and others are threaded and those also come in a variety of shapes.
I don't see a ball starter being mentioned. That's used to help start the patched ball into the bore at the muzzle.
Most places that sell black powder will have some of these black powder accessories for sale.
Others can be found online.
Don't forget to bring a small piece of carpeting to protect the rifle's butt plate while loading the rifle with it resting on the ground or even worse, on gravel or cement!
Good luck.

I have a custom Pennsylvania rifle. It is simpler to use 3Fg for main charge and it works just fine.

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That doesn't tell us much since you didn't mention the caliber. What powder do you prime with?

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DOH! Must have been tired when I posted that. .50 caliber rifle, prime and main charge with 3Fg Goex.

Another tip for cleaning if your barrel is not easily removed from the stock-EZ Flintlock Gun Cleaner: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=7030. Basically, it is plastic tubing with a small brass c-clamp attached. Take the lock off, secure clamp over touch hole, put the other end of the tube in a bucket of water, put a damp patch on your cleaning rod and pump water back and forth through the bore like a syringe.

I prime from the horn as well, even with my .63 shooting 2F. The larger grains (2F, 3F) are coated with graphite, I believe. The 4F is not. 4F can turn to sludge on a foggy, damp morning, whereas the larger granules do not, at least not as fast. If your touchhole is properly located, is of a large enough diameter, and the lock tuned with a fresh rock, using even 2F the delay from trigger pull to bang is virtually unnoticeable.

A horn can be attached to a strap to hang from the shoulder unlike a flask. But flasks have a push valve for handy use at the range, and can still fit into a possibles bag or a pocket. Various size spouts can fitted on it to help meter and direct the powder into the powder measure. But on a woods walk or for hunting the horn can have extra utility and be more period correct. That's a personal choice, just like some horns have valves and some don't.

If a .50 jag is too tight then it's diameter can be turn down slightly. It all depends on the thickness of the cleaning patches that are used. Try to avoid getting the jag stuck the first time it goes in. They get tighter as the barrel gets more fouled. A rod handle helps, even if only a piece of rubber just to help grab onto the ramrod. But factory ramrods usually don't have much of any extra length to grab on to when it's all of the down the barrel.
There's black powder cleaning rods that have 4 sections for long gun barrels. Hoppe's makes an inexpensive one that's sold as part a kit or just by itself. Buy 2 of them and have some extra sections to add length or if one breaks off where it's narrow & threaded. Don't ask me how I would know about that.

Most people (myself included) wrap the flint in a piece of leather (old work gloves cut up are great for this). I would avoid jointed rods. A "range" rod that is one piece and a few inches longer than your bore is what I use almost exclusively. I almost never use the wooden rod that stays on the rifle.

Don't buy everything all at once in the same place. Recognize a need and then fulfill it, you'll end up with less junk to give away.

So, Diggers,
I'm glad for you, another coal burner!
I would highly suggest that if you're going to use FFFG instead of FFG, you really do want to cut back the grain equivalent that you load by 10-15%. say, from 85 to 70 gr.
FFFG burns much faster than FFG and will deliver a much sharper explosion in the breech.
consequent recoil is more of a "Hit" than a "push".
Experiment with both, that's part of the fun with BP!

I did get a ball starter, just the very cheapest plastic kind though. I think it will do for now.

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FWIW, I have found little point in a ball/patch combo so tight that it requires a starter. Most of my rifles shoot a ball/patch combo that doesn't quite fill the grooves. This is as accurate as a combo that exceeds groove diameter and seats with light pressure on the ramrod. It's heresy to the "tighter is better!" traditionalists, but may be something to experiment with if you get tired of pounding on your rifle.

Good tip in the carpet. I knew that roll of extra carpet was in the closet for the last 5 years for a reason!! I saw a picture of the load posture with the butt of the gun on the ground behind the loader and was thinking "that could really mess up the wood".

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Yeah. But I've found that I can just rest the buttstock on my boot while loading. That probably has a lot to do with the easy-seating loads I prefer, though.

So with the flints....do folks here just put them in the jaws as is or do you wrap that end in leather like I've read about?

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I actually tried just tightening the cock down on a bare flint. It didn't work. The flint moved upon firing, no matter how tight the jaws. Leather works fine for me. Some folks swear by a thin piece of lead sheet. That didn't work better for me than leather, so...

Some people also like to glue the leather to the flint, making it easier to switch out flints. This does work for me, but not enough better to justify the extra work. YMMV.

So do powder horns really help or is that just more of a period style addition that goes well with BP?

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IMO the container (horn, brass, ???) doesn't matter. Horn works fine. So does everything else. The key is the spout. A good quality spout makes life a lot easier, regardless of what kind of powder container it's attached to.

I think my next purchase...next month ....will be a possibles bag. If for no other reason just to put all this stuff in so I don't miss place it.

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I have several and really like them. But to be honest, my "range bag" is a cheap plastic Black & Decker tool box with lots of compartments. I actually keep one for each caliber, so I don't have to sort through a bunch of useless .36 caliber stuff when I'm at the range with a .50, for instance. It's not at all traditional, but it's a lot easier than digging through a "one compartment" possibles bag.

Oh, and re. pan powder...

FFFFg works very well; better than FFFg or FFg in my experience. The guys in the Pacific Northwest have a point though: the unglazed FFFFg can get soggy in moist environments and cause no end of trouble. Assuming everything else in the system is reasonably correct, FFFg and FFg will ignite with regularity when used as a pan powder.

Polishing the pan can help reliability, BTW, especially on guns from Pedersoli, which normally come with unfinished pans that catch and hold moisture like nobody's business. I like to use a Dremel tool with a buffing wheel to make the pan shine.

I also like "Meal-D" from Goex for pan powder. This is a mix of unglazed FFFFg and black powder "dust". Even an unforgivably weak spark from the flint will ignite the stuff. In dry conditions, it's miraculous. In the wet, though, it's worthless, so use your own judgment...

The patch serves two functions: it acts as a gas check to keep gas from escaping around the ball and it imparts the spin on the ball from the rifling. In order to accomplish both functions it must fill the gap between the ball and the groove diameter.

While I agree with Robert Wilson that 'tighter is better' may not serve in all instances, there's a great deal of experience that encourages a good, tight fit in most cases. That requires knowing the bore dimensions of your gun and choosing components that have the most chance of satisfying it's needs. The key, of course, is to experiment and find what works best for your rifle.

Most people don't go to the trouble of slugging the bore of a muzzleloading rifle; it's difficult to do properly. But if the gun is from a major manufacturer you can estimate the numbers pretty closely. When initially starting out a good choice for use while you're getting to know the gun is a ball that's 0.010" undersized for the caliber - .490 for .50 cal, for instance. The patch should be thick enough to fill the bore plus one additional thickness; that is, for a .50 cal rifle and a .490 ball use a 0.010" patch. That gives you a combination that's 0.010" oversize for the bore. Loading the ball will crush the fabric into the grooves and against the ball. It should be fairly easy to load and will give consistent results. You can then experiment from there with different ball/patch combinations to see how well they group.

The measure of success, of course, is group size, not where the ball hits the target - that's a matter for sight adjustment. A good-fitting (not necessarily real tight) patch is critical to consistency; if it's too loose you'll just frustrate yourself chasing the ball around the target.

You'll probably have some screwups when you're starting. I know I did. So be prepared to have to pull out a ball or two when you forget the sequence. One thing that's come in really handy is a fiberglass range rod. I use snow depth markers converted to the task, but you can buy them already prepared too. They're not pretty but they can take a pounding and save your nice wood ramrod.

The .005 patches are very thin and can be burned by the BP flame or torn during loading.
A thicker patch will hold more lube and will help to swab the rifling grooves of powder residue during each loading by pushing the soft residue down into the breech when the ball is rammed home.
That process helps to reduce the need for swabbing between each shot as a separate operation.
However, at least by ordering the .005 patches, 2 or even 3 patches can be combined to compare loading difficulty and accuracy when working up a load.
Hopefully it will all work out for the best. There's always a learning curve becoming familiar with a new rifle & hobby.
Let us know how it works out.

The patch serves two functions: it acts as a gas check to keep gas from escaping around the ball and it imparts the spin on the ball from the rifling. In order to accomplish both functions it must fill the gap between the ball and the groove diameter.

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I respectfully disagree. I do not see that a cloth patch can serve as an effective gas check, and I have seen photographs and video showing flame and smoke exiting the muzzle prior to the bullet. In my opinion, the patch serves only to allow ease of loading while still imparting spin to the ball. The patch/ball combination does not have to fill the grooves in order to accomplish this, as the soft lead ball obturates upon firing. I have experimented a great deal with this and have very rarely found that a tighter fit is conducive to greater accuracy or velocity.

While I agree with Robert Wilson that 'tighter is better' may not serve in all instances, there's a great deal of experience that encourages a good, tight fit in most cases. That requires knowing the bore dimensions of your gun and choosing components that have the most chance of satisfying it's needs. The key, of course, is to experiment and find what works best for your rifle.

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I agree with all of this except for the first line. I have seen very little actual evidence to indicate that a tight fit is better. A thorough reading of period texts from England, in point of fact, shows just the opposite: a thin patch and a "loose" fit seem to be standard for British rifles of the 19th century, and in my opinion, they were quite a bit further advanced than were the Americans of the time.

Most people don't go to the trouble of slugging the bore of a muzzleloading rifle; it's difficult to do properly. But if the gun is from a major manufacturer you can estimate the numbers pretty closely. When initially starting out a good choice for use while you're getting to know the gun is a ball that's 0.010" undersized for the caliber - .490 for .50 cal, for instance. The patch should be thick enough to fill the bore plus one additional thickness; that is, for a .50 cal rifle and a .490 ball use a 0.010" patch. That gives you a combination that's 0.010" oversize for the bore. Loading the ball will crush the fabric into the grooves and against the ball. It should be fairly easy to load and will give consistent results. You can then experiment from there with different ball/patch combinations to see how well they group.

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"Fairly easy to load", is, I suppose, a matter of opinion. Any load that requires short starting is, in my opinion, not "easy to load" - especially after the gun has been fired a dozen times and fouling becomes a serious issue. In my experience, .010 larger than the groove diameter makes for obnoxious loading.

The measure of success, of course, is group size, not where the ball hits the target - that's a matter for sight adjustment. A good-fitting (not necessarily real tight) patch is critical to consistency; if it's too loose you'll just frustrate yourself chasing the ball around the target.

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Try it, my friend. I suspect you'll be surprised at how ridiculously loose it has to be before the rifle starts to complain!

Oh, but I've negligently left out one very important piece of the puzzle: loose ball/patch combos absolutely require a wad between powder and patch. I like to use pre-lubed Wonder Wads myself. This negates worries about damage to the patch, and also adds quite a bit of lube to soften fouling.

Robert Wilson - Thank you for your comments. I have developed optimum loads for a number of rifled long guns over several years. I don't say that your idea of loose loading cannot be successful, but so far all of my successful (as determined by group size) results have not included that combination. And I have to say that all of the shooters I've observed in competition and competed with have used tighter combinations as well. I have tried it, in every gun I've developed a load for; I start development with the 0.010 criteria and work both ways (and I've included dry lubed felt wads as well), and so far it hasn't worked for me. Perhaps I just haven't hit on that magic combination yet.

As far as the efficacy of a cloth patch for a gas seal, you might note that I didn't claim it was perfect; I've seen the same pictures you have, but I don't conclude that they prove the patch is ineffective. Some blow-by is normal and expected - the amount depending on how well the powder burns and the patch fits. By the way, you, and I, have no idea what the parameters were in those pictures - for all you know they were very loose fitting patches. But in the end that doesn't matter; some gas is going to escape regardless of how tight the patch is because it isn't a perfect seal.

I believe 19th Century British riflemen used loose fitting projectiles because they were trying to increase reloading speed. Tactics during that period emphasized mass firing over accuracy, a concept that has ultimately proven to be less than optimum. If you'd care to provide a reference to what you read showing they used loose loads for improved accuracy, I'd be pleased to educate myself.

Diggers said:

How is the bore measured?

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I can't tell you how to precisely measure the depth of your rifling grooves.

What is done in many cases is a simple estimation.
Being labeled a .50 caliber means that the land to land diameter is going to be ~.50 unless there's appreciable wear or poor tolerances.

The thickness of the patch is doubled and added to the diameter of the ball.
The patch thickness is doubled because it wraps around two sides of the ball that touches the lands.

What measuring your bore won't tell you is how much your patch material will be compressed when it's started into the muzzle.
Compressing the patch helps to fill the rifling grooves.
It also won't tell you how much effort will be required to load certain patch thicknesses.
That's done through trial and error and some experience with different loading tools (i.e.- mallet), ball starters and patch lube.

Rifling grooves can be moderate or deeper, for example .006 - .008, or .008 - .010 or more.
It's the rifling grooves that need to be filled to stop too much gas from escaping.
Because there are grooves on each side of the bore, their estimated depth needs to be doubled to come up with the groove to groove bore diameter.

So if the groove depth measures .008, X 2 = .016
Add that to the land to land caliber measurement .50 + .016 = .516

.516 is basically the part of the bore that needs to be filled with the patched ball based on simple "guesstimating" and math.

That's why a .490 ball plus a .015 patch is often used as a starting load.

.015 patch X 2 = .30, + .490 ball = .520 patched ball diameter.
This allows for .004 of patch compression and filling deeper rifling grooves, but will be slightly more difficult to start in the muzzle.

If a .010 patch is used, .010 X 2 = .020, + .490 ball = .510 patched ball diameter.
This will be slightly easier to load.

If a .005 patch is used, .005 X 2 = .010, + .490 ball = .500 patched ball diameter.
This won't provide enough patch material to fill the rifling grooves of most true .50 caliber rifled barrels. There are .495 balls to try but they may be tougher to load than .490 balls.

That's why I suggested to experiment using 2 or 3 .005 patches depending on how difficult the bore is to load and how well different patched balls shoot.