interested in BP

[Diggers]

Hi all,

I've become interested in buying a flintlock Kentucky rifle. I've done some reading here and there. The most complicated aspect of this seems to be what powder to use.

I've read a post by someone here that they use FF in .50 cal rifles or they can also use FFF. I also just read somewhere else that the flash pan needs FFFF.

Is this the standard? Use one type of powder in the rifle and another in the pan?

I ask because I've read a few articles on line and watched a few videos and in none of those was two different powders mentioned. Kind of strange.

Is there a better powder for a newbie to start with?

Thanks for the info.

 

[junkman_01]

You can use either 2F or 3F in the main charge. Modern doctrine says use 4F in the pan.

When flintlocks were used as military arms, the solders were issued paper cartridges. After biting off the paper tail, his first step was to prime the pan with some of the powder in the paper cartridge. Bear in mind that this was THE SAME POWDER as the main charge. They used musket powder which is roughly the equivalent of our more modern 2F powder. Use what you feel is best.

 

[mykeal]

The 'traditional' or 'standard' load in a flintlock is 4f for the priming powder and a different powder for the main charge. I enclosed traditional and standard in '' because like any such rule there are exceptions.

The use of a very fine powder (4f) is to increase ignition reliability from the sparks. 4f is not used as a main charge because it can produce high pressures and inconsistent results in that arena. The use of 3f for the main charge in long rifles of 50 caliber and below and 2f as the main charge in long rifles of 50 caliber and above is based on experience.

However, it is possible to successfully use 3f for both the main charge and the priming charge. This is most reliable in 50 and less caliber long guns that have well tuned locks that can be relied on to produce significant amounts of hot sparks.

Whether your gun is a candidate for such a setup depends on testing it. I'd give it a try and see how it works.

 

[JN01]

I have a custom Pennsylvania rifle. It is simpler to use 3Fg for main charge and it works just fine.

 

[junkman_01]

That doesn't tell us much since you didn't mention the caliber. What powder do you prime with?

 

[Diggers]

Thanks for the info.


So is that the type of powder most of you like to use in long rifles?

Is there any brand that is more popular?

HUMMM just went to Basspro and Cabelas and they don't even sell 4F powder only 2&3 F. Odd.

 

[mykeal]

Real black powder is highly recommended for use in flintlocks as the substitute powders have significantly higher ignition temperatures and may not reliably ignite from the primer gas. If you must use a substitute powder you can make it work fairly well by using a duplex charge: load a small (5 grains) charge of real black powder as the main charge first, then follow with the remainder in a substitute powder.

It's not unusual for a big outlet to fail to sell 4f - they really don't see flintlock shooters as a viable market. I'm frankly a bit surprised they have 2f and 3f in real black powder.

Brands of real black powder: Goex, KIK, Swiss, Schutzen, Wano plus the sutler's house brands: Graf's and Jack's Powder Keg. Goex is most popular, with Swiss considered a premium powder used mostly by competitive shooters.

 

[XxWINxX94]

Generally more fine powder is to be used for priming the pan, and less fine powder for the main charge.

Example: FF in barrel and FFFF in pan.

 

[arcticap]

There are a greater or lesser amount of "fines" or granules of 4f in every 1 pound container of black powder. Some of these fines can be sifted out to be used as "choice" priming powder.
The only problem is that the remaining powder needs to be well mixed to achieve consistent results and separating the fines does alter the mix a bit. But the base material is there to experiment with and to see what works the best.
1 pound of 4f powder might be enough to last some folks having one flintlock a lifetime.
mykeal's suggestion to use 3f for both priming and for the main charge is a very good one.

 

[Hendiadys]

As a general rule, if you find a particular load of say, 2F that works best in your rifle, drop back 10 grains for a suitable 3F load. And note that for each "F" the particle size is reduced by one half, that is to say, FFFG granules are one half the size of FFG granules, FFG granules are onehalf the size of FG granules. It's really pretty simple.

But NEVER use 4F (FFFFG) as a main charge. The finer the powder, the faster it burns and the faster the pressure spike. There are other granulations as well, like Null B. It's really fine.

And welcome to the wonderful world of BP. The journey begins.

 

[Hendiadys]

Another BP source (don't know where you are) is Back Creek Gun Shop in N. Virginia (Winchester). Offers bulk rate powder sold in 5 lb. bags for a case equivilant of 25 lbs. If you shoot much, bulk powder is the way to go and makes a trip to get it worthwhile.

 

[Diggers]

Thanks for all the info on powder guys, it's really helpful for a newbie.

I'm in San Diego CA and believe it or not there is a Black Powder shooting club here so there has to be resorces here for BP shooting.

I saw a gun shop online that's near by that said it had a good black powder section in the shop. I'm going to go by tomorrow to check it out to see what they have. If its not great I can always order on line.

 

[Cosmoline]

Real black powder is highly recommended for use in flintlocks[/B]

Big dittos on that. You'll be much happier with your flintlock experience if you use real black powder. Make sure to verify that it is actual black powder, not a modern substitute. Goex is what I use.

Now you just need to get a rifle.

 

[Diggers]

Indeed I do! Been looking at the Kentucky rifle on Cabelas site. The reviews from people who bought it are pretty good.

I'll be sure to start with Goex and figure it out from there.

 

[Pops]

I've the Cabelas Kentucky in .50 flint.
Made by PEDERSOLI, excellent fit and finish.. You won't be disappointed.
Beautiful rifle, and a tack driver. Fits me like a glove.
I use 65 gr 3f GOEX and a .490 round ball.
I also prime with 3 gr 3f.
I initially tried 2f, but my baby likes 3f better..

 

[Hendiadys]

You might also look at the Lyman Deerstalker or Great Plains Rifles. T.J. General Store (online source) is another option.

Custom guns are nice, but very expensive.

For flints, try "Long Trek" out of St. Louis, Mo. Sparky and tough. I don't know what's lying on the ground there in CA. but experimenting with the local geological offerings (chert, agate, whatever) is always interesting and sometimes enlightening.

Patch lubes will be a whole chapter unto themselves. You might start with Crisco or windshield wiper fluid. Both will work well.

I put off casting my own roundballs for a long time, but now find that I enjoy that as an activity in and of it's own that I enjoy as much as shooting them.

Check out the fabric shops, buy cotton ticking and cotton flannel by the yard, you're going to need it. The flannel will often be on sale at something like $3/yd.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've gone to using a very simple mixture of pure beeswax and olive oil for patch lube. I adjust the thickness by increasing or decreasing oil-to-wax ration. Incredibly easy, and of course food grade non-toxic. That's important considering how often things end up in your mouth in traditional muzzleloading. It also really seems to help cleanup compared with other lubes I've tried.

 

[Diggers]

Pops, that is a pretty rifle. Thanks for the encouragement. Is that the regular Kentucky rife they are selling or is it the Blue Ridge model? BTW how long is the barrel?

Yes I still have some other things to figure out, such as what other doodads I will need to hold the powder and measure it while I'm shooting.

As far as patches go, I'll just start with the prelubed ones that cabelas has for sale. They come in 3 thicknesses.

So I know BP is very corrosive thus clean up needs to be done well. What do you guys use to clean out the barrel and all the other parts exposed to the BP?

 

[Cosmoline]

I use very hot, near boiling, water poured down the barrel followed by an immediate scrubbing of the bore with patches and bore butter. I also melt bore butter on the hot steel after drying it with a towel. The excess is wiped off and the bore finished with dry patches to clean out excess butter and any lingering water.

For the pan and other parts, as well as for field cleaning, I use the 90% rubbing alcohol and elbow grease.

The Blue Ridge is a nice rifle, though the Italian locks can be stiff until broken in and are known to break flints. Some butter on the frizzen spring should help.

You can also build your own from parts, which is the ultimate shooting experience IMHO.

 

[mykeal]

First of all, I seal the inside of the lock mortise and barrel & tang cutouts with tung oil or Tru-Oil to prevent moisture from entering the wood. Only need to do this once per gun.

Cleaning involves removing the barrel from the stock, removing the nipple from a percussion barrel and then submerging the breech end in a bucket of clear, warm water. Some use detergent or cleaning agents like Simple Green. The water is deep enough to cover the touch hole or nipple hole. I then wet a cleaning patch and use a cleaning jag on the range rod to push the patch slowly down the bore. Once it reaches the bottom I slowly pull it back out; the hydraulic action causes the patch to suck water in the touch hole/nipple hole and fill the bore as the patch is pulled up. I then force the water back out the hole by pushing the patch back down, alternating up and down to pump the water in and out. I do this twice with this first patch, then repeat with a second wet patch. This second patch should be fairly clean after the second pass. I then refill the bucket with clean water and repeat with one more wet patch; this second bucket should remain clean. If so, all that's needed is to thoroughly dry the barrel. Some use dry patches followed by a water displacement medium such as alcohol or even WD-40. Once the barrel is dry I finish with a coat of Ballistol or Barricade.

You may wish to remove and clean the back (mechanism) side of the lock as it's possible that combustion byproducts reach that area, especially with a flintlock. Ideally the lock will be sealed against the wood and barrel, but nothing is ever perfect. If you see evidence of combustion byproducts in this area, clean the lock mechanism with warm water as you did with the bore; there's usually no need to disassemble the lock itself. However, be very sure to thoroughly dry the mechanism and re-oil it.

 

[Pops]

Diggers....

Mine is THE Kentucky...
I went in wanting the Frontier (NICE looking rifle) but when I shouldered it, it just
didn't fit...
Tried the Kentucky and it fit like it was 'specially made just for me..bought it on the spot...
The barrel is 35.5", LOP is 13.25", OAL is 50.5"
I use DAWN dish soap and hot water to clean...

 

[unknwn]

I was reading the other day that to "produce" FFFF from FFF 777 for use in a pan can be done by simply pulverizing it between index finger and thumb. I've never tried it myself but it would seem to me that it would be painless & simple to experiment with.

 

[Diggers]

Nice Pops. No cabelas in CA so I can't walk in and check them out....however no cabelas here also means no sales tax I believe.

So do you take the barrel off to clean it? I've read about equal pro and con for taking the barrel off to clean. (maybe slight edge to taking the barrel off) It does seem like a good way to not damage the wood and the only way any care will be given to the part of the barrel the wood covers.

 

[mykeal]

I was reading the other day that to "produce" FFFF from FFF 777 for use in a pan can be done by simply pulverizing it between index finger and thumb. I've never tried it myself but it would seem to me that it would be painless & simple to experiment with.

The ignition temperature of 777 is much higher than real black powder. If your intent is to produce a 4f 777 to use as a primer I think you would be wasting your time.

 

[Hendiadys]

I used to use hot water and Bore Butter. Got away from both of them. When it comes to clean up-be aware that everything in BP is water soluble. Nothing fancy needed. I use ambient temperature water and plain water for clean up and no longer have the flash rusting associated with hot water. I dry out the barrel with alcohol (gas line dryer) and or compressed air and apply "Eezox" to store.

Yes, I remove the barrel to clean and do an emersion cleaning of the lock assembly each time.

Also, be advised that the more water resistent your patch lube, the more water resistent it will be at clean up. I make up a liquid pine soap that I use for patch lube based on LeHigh Valley Lube. So the barrel is already soap exposed when it comes time to clean up. Corrosion begats more corrosion, so if you have a nice bright polished bore, it will harbor less corrosion to begin with. It will load easier and shoot better if it can be kept that way. I don't use brushes either.