Brandishing a firearm?

The incident you described could very well be interpreted as brandishing but if it allowed you to avoid a violent outcome and did not lead to any legal repercussions, then who can complain?

Unless you actually draw your weapon and are under threat of bodily harm, I would keep it concealed. There are other ways of fending off and preventing a violent encounter.

Depends on who you talk to, but showing your weapon intentionally would be one way, and actually putting your hand on it would be another. There will be those that will tell you that just allowing it to be seen is brandishing, but that is pretty much FUD. Most LEO's look for/at intent to make this determination. BTW, not making a reasonable attempt to conceal your weapon could be construed as intent to show it off (BRANDISH).

Brandishing a firearm?

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Usually results in felony criminal threatening charges.

Most LEO's look for/at intent to make this determination.

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Not neccessarily. Just having seen it and having it reported is often enough for a felony criminal threatening charge, even without any actual dialogue between the two parties.

Hi Neighbor..

Welcome to THR fellow Hoosier.
Indiana has "License To Carry Handgun"-does NOT specify open or concealed carry. You could be in just your Boxers, with your handgun, with license and still be legal.
Unwanted threats or intimidation would still be against the law, of course, but I see no problem with showing the perps your weapon.
PM me if you wish for more info.

BTW-When you re-new your LTCH, go ahead and get the Lifetime LTCH and you will not have to do it again..Bill..


PS: How about them "Dawgs"--Butler Wins..

Welcome to THR, Ralph!

Of course the answer to the question is, "it depends."

Any move to deliberately display your weapon could be brandishing, and that can be a form of "assault" in some places/cases. However, like all other forms of force which would be serious crimes on their own, there are times when that force might be justifiable.

Any motion you might perform involving your sidearm, from "scratching that conveniently-timed itch" to drawing and even shooting someone must be done very deliberately and with a clear rationale. In other words, is this a "reasonable" response to a credible threat of some kind?

You just articulated to us what made you feel that was reasonable. It certainly could have ended up with you explaining to a police officer the same thing. And, given the totality of the circumstances, that very well may be viewed as completely justified. Of course, there's too much random variation in the world to say with certainty that that would be the case.

The open carry vs. concealed carry question may apply. If it is legal to carry openly, then the potential aggressors seeing your gun isn't de facto a crime. However, even a gun carried openly could be "brandished" in an unlawful way. But if your state allows OC, and you weren't witnessed waving the gun around in your hand, and you had an articulable reason why you felt threatened if for some reason you did have to explain your actions to an officer (or the court), your given scenario seems like a pretty low-risk choice which may have saved you quite a bit of trouble.

As others have said, any time you are involved in a confrontation, you are rolling the dice to some extent. Do so as deliberately and clear-headedly as possible and be able to articulate your reasons.

The incident you described could very well be interpreted as brandishing but if it allowed you to avoid a violent outcome and did not lead to any legal repercussions, then who can complain?

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Depending on the law of the land, the young men can. And depending on the law of the land, it could have cost the OP quite a bit of trouble.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't have done it if it had been me because I wasn't there, but in general, I'm of the mind that pulling a gun (even as a warning) should be a last resort, preceded by a number of other strategies and actions designed to avoid and escape possible trouble.

I don't care for the cute "I suddenly developed an itch" comment.
No. you were threatened and were preparing for the threat appropriately

Now I have to ask why does what happened then concern you with your current renewal now?
You don't plan on mentioning this on the renewal do you?

Finally, let's say what you did was brandishing. Are the guys going to tell the cops "Hey that guy flashed his gun at
us when we threatened him!" ?

http://www.opencarry.org/in.html

Summary
Indiana is not a traditional open carry state. However, with an Indiana permit, open carry is legal.

Preemption
Complete state preemption of firearms law except localities may regulate the carrying of firearms in land, buildings, or other real property they own or administer.

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Finally, let's say what you did was brandishing. Are the guys going to tell the cops "Hey that guy flashed his gun at us when we threatened him!" ?

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Of course not. If they call first, whatever they tell the cops is going to be what the cops investigate. All they have to do is say that they were walking across the street and some angry white guy yelled at them and started trouble, then flashed a gun when they answered back.

It'd be a complete lie, but the cops wouldn't know that. They'd come to investigate expecting a man with a gun. That's not something the OP wants to deal with, which is why being the first to call the police is a good idea.

I had to "display" my CC once.
I pulled into a gas station with a guy on my bumber. I stopped at the 1st. pump cause the 2nd. had a out of order bag on it. The guy almost rear-ended me.
He started on his horn when I got out to pump my gas. Then he started yelling at me(talking about my momma and everybodys momma)about pulling up to the next pump.
I told him it was out of order so he pulled to the other side of the island still talking about my momma. I walked past him and spoke those two words of brotherly love.
When I came back from paying he had a baseball bat tapping it on my Z-28. Not good.
I went around my car to avoid him but he still came over to my window "I should hit you a couple out times for good measure". I told him to "hold that thought" while I put my gun on my leg where he could see it. End of conversation; walked back to his car and left.
I sat there shaking thinking about what could have happened. A guy shot in a gas station, Cops, jail, newspaper,family, his and mine. This happened about 6 months after CCW was legal; I had my permit for about a month.
I haven't had to show it to anybody since.

I remember what Clint Eastwood said in the movie "The Unforgiven" "It's helluva thing killing a man. You take away all he's got, and all he's ever going to have."

+1 on calling the police to report the incident. If you do that, there shouldn't be any problem with what you did. Good job btw!


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I guess it would depend on the personal attitudes within a jurisdiction, but IMO brandishing would mean having the gun in one's hand and showing it in a quite visible manner. IMO, merely allowing it to be seen while holstered is a different matter. I would not call that brandishing.

kingpin008 said:

If they call first, whatever they tell the cops is going to be what the cops investigate. All they have to do is say that they were walking across the street and some angry white guy yelled at them and started trouble, then flashed a gun when they answered back.

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If you showed a firearm because of a legitimate fear--meaning, these guys really were going to do something--there is NO way they're going to call the police. Thugs don't get the police involved. I hear your argument a lot, but I wonder if it's ever happened. Even once.

I think of brandishing as an offensive move, and hence why it's illegal. Of course there's a gray area, but as long as you're only pulling/showing your firearm for a legitimate reason, nobody on the receiving end is going to call the cops. Though you should just to report the thugs since there's a good chance you're not the first or last victim.

I had to "display" my CC once.
I pulled into a gas station with a guy on my bumber. I stopped at the 1st. pump cause the 2nd. had a out of order bag on it. The guy almost rear-ended me.
He started on his horn when I got out to pump my gas. Then he started yelling at me(talking about my momma and everybodys momma)about pulling up to the next pump.
I told him it was out of order so he pulled to the other side of the island still talking about my momma. I walked past him and spoke those two words of brotherly love.
When I came back from paying he had a baseball bat tapping it on my Z-28. Not good.
I went around my car to avoid him but he still came over to my window "I should hit you a couple out times for good measure". I told him to "hold that thought" while I put my gun on my leg where he could see it. End of conversation; walked back to his car and left.
I sat there shaking thinking about what could have happened. A guy shot in a gas station, Cops, jail, newspaper,family, his and mine. This happened about 6 months after CCW was legal; I had my permit for about a month.
I haven't had to show it to anybody since.

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You may have well gotten in some trouble with this incident based on the words of 'brotherly love' you spoke to him. That would have been escalating the situation. Try to avoid that in the future.

If you showed a firearm because of a legitimate fear--meaning, these guys really were going to do something--there is NO way they're going to call the police. Thugs don't get the police involved. I hear your argument a lot, but I wonder if it's ever happened. Even once.

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It's happened to me. Not with a handgun, but with a blade. Back in highschool, I hosted a halloween party at my house. All my friends, a few bands, it was a pretty decent size shindig. Problem was, the people I invited invited all their friends, and on and on. I was expecting about 60 people, almost 150 showed up.

In the process of making those who weren't invited leave, one of my friends got into it with two brothers that he had had issues with all throughout our highschool careers. These two were bullies, plain and simple. It got to the point where my buddy was being backed up against a parked car by the two, and he pulled a knife to let them know he wasn't going to let them beat him down again. He merely pulled it and held it at his side - no other moves were made, but he also had a look in his eye that said there would be if the two decided to push things.

They left, and things generally calmed down. 20 minutes later, the cops show up and demand to see my friend. He comes forward, and the officer tells him to put his hands up and tell him where the knife is. He complies, the knife is removed from his pocket, and he's cuffed.

It took six of us talking to the officers to convince them that the two brothers were the real agressors, and that my buddy was merely standing up for himself. In the end, he got a very strongly worded talking to, had his knife confiscated, and the police left.

So yeah, it does happen. Maybe not all the time, but it's not worth the risk. If I and the other partygoers hadn't been there to verify my friend's side of the story, he likely would have been taken to jail on an attempted assault charge.

You should at least be aware of how the statute law defines brandishing.

Any case (common) law will also apply.

If you cannot find an authoritative answer, pay an attorney a few dollars to get an answer.

I thought that intent usually decided whether in was brandishing or not. I could be wrong.

If i pull my gun out to threaten then it is brandishing but if I reach up to get something and my shirt lifts up and someone else sees the gun then it was an accident.

At POST they(the lawyers who taught the classes) did teach us the difference between the two.When i finally get hired somewhere at least I will know the difference.

Here in Utah i can brandish if some one is threatening me as a defense before actually pulling my gun. Some of you guys have got it tough.

Ralph, look up you state law. Look specifically what the law states brandishment is, or is not.

Here in WA state the RCW 9:41:270 (revised code of Washington) very specifically states what "brandishment" is and is not. In particular read (3)does not apply to: (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person

Somewhat like in Indiana, Washington state is open carry (but you do not need a permit), and you need a permit to concealed carry.

I, personally, do not think what you did is brandishment. Here, if you pulled back you jacket (to scratch an itch), that is not brandishment. If you were to pull the weapon out of it's holster, that is brandisment. However, if you felt threatened by this group, it would not be illegal.

You are not supposed to intimidate, but you can protect yourself.

Ralph: I just read your Indiana firearm law...strangely, there is no mention of "brandishment" or any other term that would apply. That means if a LEO was to site you for brandishment I would want to know what section of the law had been broken. It looks like there is no provision.

This happened in my state. I guess showing a gun is the def. of brandish.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/artic...rested_for_pulling_a_gun_threatens_his_iphone

I was reading another site about brandishing in OH. We have open carry so the general idea is
if I show my gun in a non-menacing way that would be covered under open carry. Don't need a permitt for OC.
I'm going to stop by the Sheriff's Dept. and find out EXACTLY what the law is.

I don't believe it would be considered brandishing unless you were threatening them. Especially since you did not draw it, it never left your side, and you said nothing.

typical over-reaction.

You should at least be aware of how the statute law defines brandishing.
Any case (common) law will also apply.
If you cannot find an authoritative answer, pay an attorney a few dollars to get an answer.

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1. Some states have definitions of brandishing, many of which differ from one another; some do not. There is no substitute for knowing your state's laws. Common sense does not apply in many states, and the assumption it does can leave people miles up the creek without a paddle.
2. Some states address showing a firearm to ward off a criminal attack, and again, some do not, and common sense may or may not apply. If you don't know, you have a potentially very serious legal problem.

That said™, you've gotta do what you've gotta do; further, any time there's any kind of trouble that even remotely might be related to a carried gun, the smart money is on making a very quick telephone to the local police. He who complains first tends to be taken more seriously. Would criminals intent upon creating mischief dare to call the police? Not many, to be sure, but all it takes is one daring individual willing to try whining, "That big meanie with an evil gun tried to rob me, officer!"

Here's what I recommend:

1. Save your life by any means necessary, ideally without gun shots.
2. Call the police to make sure your back side is covered.
3. Expect to be given the free ride to headquarters and have a long heart to heart conversation with a detective, and possibly a booking sergeant into the bargain.