.38 Super 1911?

The .38 Super is a good round methinks but it's a little past its prime IMHO. It has been surpassed with more recent cartridges for semi-autos, notably the .357 Sig. Factory ballistics put a 125gr .38 super +P at about 1250 fps from a 5" barrel, and a 125gr .357 Mag at about 1450 fps from a 4" barrel. If you look at specialized ammo like Buffalo Bore, the super gets up to about 1350 fps and the mag up to about 1700 fps for the same bullet weights(all velocities claimed by manufacturer). That's quite a disparity, so the .38 Super is no match for the Mag as far as sheer performance. Whether you would want to shoot a 1700 fps .357 mag is another story, I suppose.

If I'm not mistaken, the .38 super was developed to better penetrate auto bodies in the late 20s or early 30s, something that the two most popular police cartridges of the time, the .45 ACP and the .38 special, could not do.

It is especially appropriate if you are enamored of the 1911 platform, as the length of the cartridge better fits the magazine well of the 1911, helping to eliminate the possibility of some of the problems encountered when using shorter cartridges in that particular platform. Plus, like you said, it's a classic. Especially if the 1911 is nickel plated

And a 125gr HP going over 1200 fps is nothing to sneeze at.

I recently got one. I like it, but it's a toy for me. Within SAAMI pressure it's basically a 9mm +P to +P+, or right on the edge of a 357 SIG. You will not load it anywhere near a 357 Magnum while staying within SAAMI pressure. For a long time some IPSC shooters hot-rodded 38 Super to ridiculous pressures in order to make "major" with a relatively small, soft-recoiling cartridge. This works, but it requires a fully supported barrel and it's a bit risky. The change in major PF requirement (from 175 to 165) and lots of new calibers seems to have reduced the popularity of this.

There's relatively limited commercial ammo in 38 Super, so it really helps to be a handloader. If you are, it's a fun cartridge in a 1911.

If you look up maximum loads for a 357 Magnum using modern powders, still staying within SAAMI pressure limits, you'll see that almost none of the autoloader cartridges come anywhere close to it. Even 9x25 Dillon is barely there.

That's what Les Baer told me. IMHO It is a great range round and a Fantastic self defense round, BTW Mr. Baer really did tell me that when I called to ask some questions.

38 Super is just awful, it was introduced in 1929, it's outdated and way past it's prime.

124 @ 1200 fps is 9x19 Para territory. Heck, Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P runs a 124gr GD at roughly 1300 fps from most service 9's.

Given the same bore size, performance scales with powder capacity. The .38 Super has more than 9x19, so when loaded to similar pressures the .38 Super will outperform 9. 38super.net lists factory .38 Super loads with a 124-125gr bullet at over 1300 fps, some over 1350 fps.

The evolution of the .38 Super might be said to be the 9x23-- strong case and no rim, like a grown-up 9x19.

The 9x23 and .38 Super are the .35" hot-rods for pistols that have an action the length of .45 ACP, and they are the natural choices for these pistols.

The .357 Sig was designed to fit in the 9x19/.40SW platform, and there is little reason to shoot it in a long-action (.45ACP size) pistol. In the shorter-action pistols, it's the hot-rod .35" choice.

So in practice, if you have a 1911/2011-based platform, the 9x23 or .38 Super is the way to go. If you have a .40 platform (e.g. Glock, USP, Sig, etc), the .357 Sig is the way to go.

For what it's worth, it is very unlikely anything you shoot at will be able to tell the difference between 9mm Para +P and either .357 Sig, 9x23, or .38 Super.

38 super - 1911

Having owned a # of 38 supers over the years, IMHO it is one very fine caliber, IF you handload. It is nearly as effective as the 45 ACP, & without
the recoil. The 38 super is to the 1911 as the 44 spl is to the single action.
My .02 cents
USMC Vet

The 9x23 Winchester has everything you are looking to do with a hotrodded 38 super, but all the work is already done. There are only 4 or 5 factory loads though which is really sad. The cartridge has a lot to offer over the 357 Sig: no bottle neck, stronger case, better fit in the 1911, higher magazine capacity potential and the ability to convert to 9x19 (and 38 super/super comp for that matter) with a barrel and spring. STI has a racegun chambered for it and you should be able to get most custom 1911 builders to make you one. Don't try to shoot one in an unmodified 38 super gun though...possible boom.

I don't see what being an older cartridge has to do with it, 1350 with a 125 is more than sufficient for SD. Would it be better if it was only a few years old doing the same?

The 38 Auto was originally developed for law enforcement who wanted better penetration again car bodies and it has improved greatly as it has grown older. Add in it is very accurate cartridge and it is full of win!

USMC Vet said:

Having owned a # of 38 supers over the years, IMHO it is one very fine caliber, IF you handload. It is nearly as effective as the 45 ACP, & without
the recoil. The 38 super is to the 1911 as the 44 spl is to the single action.
My .02 cents
USMC Vet

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Welcome to the forum USMC Vet! I like the way you think.

There's something nice about it not being just another one of the 50 gigagajillion 9MM parabellums out there, it's nice to have a bit more identity. I got to shoot a Springfield 38 Super and for some reason I really like the gun and cartridge combination.
As replacement for the .45 ACP it doesn't make sense to me when we have the awesome mighty 10MM though, if we needed to replace the .45, which of course most of us don't.

The .38 Super is a fine cartridge. Factory ammo is downloaded quite a bit from its original specs due to the number of older guns and the Llama clones that were chambered for it...but a 125-130-grain bullet at 1150 fps ain't exactly a weak sister.

Cor-Bon's loadings offer some pretty impressive ballistics for it, too...just be careful that the gun you plan to use it in is up to the task. It's hot. Cor-Bon puts the 124-grain bullet into low-end .357 Magnum territory...exceeding Remington's "Attenuated" 125 grain JHP offering at 1280 fps...which Marshall and Sanow rated at about 82% one-shot stops...which puts it ahead of the .41 Magnum 210-grain "Police" load and the .38 Special +P 158 grain LSWCHP offering.

Although their data has proven to be flawed, and not to be taken as absolute...it still offers a decent basis for comparison between cartridges.

Once Bar-Sto broke ground by producing barrels that headspaced on the case mouth instead of the rim, the accuracy issues went away, and the Super Thutty eight is capable of impressive accuracy.

It's very likely the caliber that Browning would have built the 1911 around if he'd had a free hand in the matter, but the US Army specified a .45 caliber pistol...and it is what it is.

Thutty-ate Soo-pah + 1911 = On my wish list.

A 9mm Parabellum and 9x23 Win barrel to fit on the .38 Super gun might be an excellent set of accessories.

I've wanted a 38 super for quite a while...but every time I start shopping for one I come away with another 45 acp - resistance is futile.

In the VihtaVuori 3rd edition loading manual, it lists the 38 Super +P pushing a 124gr Hornady FMJ at 1594fps from a 5.5" barrel using 10.9gr of N105.

Seems a bit optimistic, but I haven't tried it.....maybe.

Tony

TonyRumore said:

In the VihtaVuori 3rd edition loading manual, it lists the 38 Super +P pushing a 124gr Hornady FMJ at 1594fps from a 5.5" barrel using 10.9gr of N105.

Seems a bit optimistic, but I haven't tried it.....maybe.

Click to expand...

That's just insane. My VihtaVuori data lists the same data, but I'm not attempting that.

I enjoy the 38 Super. Since it uses 9mm bullet components, it's less expensive to shoot than anything in 40 or 45 caliber. It's pleasant to shoot. And as a reloader, it's quite nice to load for.

Factory .357 Sig does outperform factory 38 Super. But if you load at home it is no comparison. The .357 Sig can't use all the 9mm components available on the market because of the probems with case neck tension. Nor can it take advantage of the heavier 9mm bullets that the 38 Super can. And as a bottleneck cartridge, it really sucks to load . . . have to lube the cases.


I've been using 38 SuperComp cases lately, and I really wished I had got turned onto them years ago. I chronied some 125gr loads using VihtaVuori 3N37 the other week, got them going 1320 fps out of a Commander barrel. I pushed some 147 gr loads 1150 fps; and they both felt pleasant.

9x23s really do not. Factory Silvertips go 1450 fps from my gun, and they're a real handful. When I didn't feel like sitting behind the load bench I used to buy factory 9mms to put through the gun before ammo prices got too crazy. But since the prices on factory ammo spiked, I make the time.

My dad still has his 38 Super Colt that he bought, I'm guessing, in the mid to late 50s, blued, and practically new still. I doubt he's ever even fired a whole box of ammo through it. I bring it up every now and again, but he's not ready to pass it along.

I use 38 SuperComp cases as well....never fired anything else. I had to modify the extractor on my Kimber to run them, but my Witness runs them just fine.

Tony

It's high on my want list

I want one but it has to be a Colt and it has to be old enough to have "Super 38" on the slide

As long as you have a barrel with a fully supported chamber, you can get pretty hot with a Super. I like the 9mm 1911s. They are very comfortable to shoot and a lot of fun. The only thing that I don't like about the Supers, 9X23s and 9X21s is sourcing the brass and having to pay for it. You can get pretty hot with a 9mm too, but dealing with the brass issue is a lot easier due to availability.

TonyA,

I've gotten all my brass through MidwayUSA. I did recently place an order directly to Starline for 1k pieces of SuperComp. So few shooters actually reload I usually find 9mm brass at the club so I've never had to buy any. But I never remember seeing the difference in 1k 9mm and 1k 38 Super being more than about 10 or 12 dollars. 9x23 on the other hand, that's always been considerably more expensive.


I wouldn't think about pushing 38 Super very hot without a supported chamber.


TonyR,

I didn't have to adjust my extractor to run 9x23, 9mm, or SuperComp. But then again it's not exactly a factory gun, either. Some people found they did have to adjust or replace an extractor when going from that semi-rim to a case without it; others had to do nothing. It all just depends on the gun.

I have a corrected series 80 commander in 38 super that shoots toe to toe with my Gold Cup . I used it as a carry gun until the Glock 23 became available. I would use it now as a carry gun but couldn't stand to lose it. The Glock can be replaced easily.