Shotgun no longer a formidable defensive weapon?

There are people out there who have never shot a shotgun, nor have they researched what kind of damage a shotgun is capable of; they would rather have something that looks or seems cool. I prefer a shotgun for home defense because of their CQB capabilities, not to mention the sheer POWER of a 12 gauge with 00 buck!

Quote:
"Shotguns also tear up shoulders so I don't think most people want to do a class any more often than that."

This.

For a class though, I don't think I'd use slugs or buck. I'd use game loads, also for price point. And with those a 12 gauge while more substantial is still pretty manageable, right?

coloradokevin,
I appreciate your concern. The 00 buck shots are a great ammunition but in order to reduce risk and potential liabilities the other loads are more than plenty for home defense at the typical range. The average civilian doesn't have the privilege or opportunity to clear an entire area, empty an entire apartment building before they put themselves in a situation where might need to use lethal force.
These type of loads have been tested many times. Manufactures spend the time and money to make sure they are effective. A few loads come to mind. Remington Home Defense, Hevi-shot Personal Defense, T-Shots, BB mixed with #4 (which is virtually the same). These are not "bird loads". At the ranges we are talking about high velocity loads are devastating. Anything that penetrates so much that goes all the way through several layers of clothing + a human torso and keeps flying is energy waisted. Until a round is invented to quickly do a 180(turn around) and strike again then I will use what I think is enough. If I didn't have any other priorities I would use the most lethal system I could get.

The FBI doesn't have much data on some new tactics so they cannot provide the information they do not have. Even the manufactures are starting to collect more statistics on this. The principal is simple, if possible leave the closest to the 100% of the energy in the target. Also frangible ammunition is an old concept but newly implemented for the scenarios we are talking about.
My preferred load all my life both in the service and after retired was the 00buck until I tested these. I did some research, talked to many about this and tested the loads.
As soon as people stay open minded, think about it, and test whatever they feel is better for their situation, the possibilities are endless.

I feel in my circumstances, where I live with people in my house, and my neighbors close by, I need to be very careful.

The best way to mitigate risk is to just simply do that.

Cheers,
E.

I'm inclined to disagree with that last statement. Semi-automatic battle rifles still run in essentially the same way that semi-automatic weapons always have.

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It's not so much the operation but the package, they didn't have anything like the AR-15 or other easy to manage but relatively powerful high capacity carbine in the days of old.

Pump and tube fed semi shotguns are technological contemporaries to bolt action rifles, and are vastly superior to those "up close", but much less so compared to a modern "assault" rifle, especially when body armor comes into the picture.

^^shotguns tear up shoulders``

I share your pain--try 20 ga. buck in a semi-auto. It shoots like the proverbial .22. Fast handling, too.

My first real exposure to guns was when a BassPro shop opened up nearby. They have an indoor range, charge ten bucks a lane, but its pistol only. Other range I go to charges more for shotguns.

The AR / carbines don't interest me much. shotguns do seem more intimidating, but nut that much. if I knew of a shotgun class going on in my area that was reasonably priced, I'd sign up. I'd love to learn how to shoot one.

its mainly costs of gun rental that got me to try handguns.

Keep telling the bad guys that shotguns are "out of vogue" and I'll just keep mine ready and waiting.

When military and police forces around the world stop using shotguns, then I'll think about giving mine up. If I could only keep one gun for home defense, it would be my Winchester Defender.

Shotgun no longer a formidable defensive weapon?

Only on the Internet.....

In Police work, both have a place... the North Hollywood Shootout brought about the end of an about 10 year old Policy in my old department against carrying carbines.. It was studied a length my a large number of agencies.. It is true, only supervisors had shotguns, slugs were not allowed, and it is what led officers to go to a local gun shop and "Borrow" proper armament.. it changed the playing field... all over the country..

When that shootout occurred, there were news helicopters in the air from all four major networks.. I happened to be working a side job at one of the local TV stations, in the control room the crew was watching live feeds from all four (ABC,CBS,NBC and FOX) Helicopters in LA.. I had them shove one hour tapes in all four live feeds and recoded them all... We changed tapes several times.. When it was done, they were nice enough to transfer all of the feeds to a VHS format for me, and I presented all of the feeds to our guys at the Academy who teach Officer Safety... THEY WERE BEAMING! They said it was like gold to them... they tore them apart for weeks... They had a pretty good training video cut from it by our video section..

Shortly afterward, our department approved carbines again... I do not know if my present to them had anything to do with it, I doubt it, as it soon became a national trend..

BUT ITS ALL ABOUT THE AMMO for home defense.. In shotguns we settled on #4 Buck for street use, good balance between penetration and over penetration, 27 rounds of 25cal at 1300fps is pretty devastating as well. However any port in a storm, a load of 7 1/2 in a closed room would fairly effective.. again, not my 1st choice, but if it was what was available...

in an AR platform, for in home, or CQB where over-penetration is a concern, my choice would probably be Frangible Ball, or something fast and in the 50-55gr range.. The 50-55 grain stuff will cut most vest like butter... I have never shot Frangible at a vest, can't tell you how that would act.. But I know there is nothing left in the energy department with plywood, or double layer of sheetrock..

Using the .17 Remington, and the .220 Swift as a yardstick, I know that both will penetrate vests with ease, and 1 1/4" Lexan nicely, ( I have done it ) but there is not much energy left on the other side, nothing comes through except dust and tiny fragments.. much like frangible, so I would imagine, and this is only a SWAG (Scientific Wild A** Guess) that a hit on an vest with frangible would be a less than pleasant experience...

The biggest problem with shotguns has nothing to do with shotguns.

It's that very few ranges allow for shooting them in a way and with the ammo you'd use for home defense.

Great home defense firearms, almost impossible to practice with unless you have access to private land.

In the San Antonio region, it is sometimes the case that after the IDPA matches held by www.texastactical.net - there is a shotgun side match.

I should shoot it more.

But the AR is my main SD house long arm for reasons stated above. But I've taken a shotgun class and am taking another.

One should have some eclectic experiences.

Recoil issues on shotguns can be mitigated partially throughh use of proper recoil pads, or even use of special recoil dampening stocks that are availible in the aftermarket for a few popular models.

My 500 has a factory Mossberg recoil pad, and it GREATLY reduces felt recoil. A proper shoulder placement helps as well. Basically, through paying attention to those two, it goes from crazy recoil to high but managable.

TexasRifleman brought up a good point about places to practice with shotguns realistically, but I have a worse problem with realistic rifle practice. Even my employer, a large PD, is no help regarding rifles, as I can only shoot a rifle once a year on their range, when qualifying, and NO local public/private ranges seem to allow anything except slow-fire from a bench, or perhaps prone.

One local outdoor range, that insists on shooting rifles only from a bench, does at least allow shotgunners to shoot at silhouette targets while standing. A local indoor range allows shotguns, and last I knew, buck was OK, just no slugs, due to the limitations of their backstop. Of course, an indoor range, with booths limiting one's movement, is not ideal for practice with a long gun.

I am glad I was able to develop a skills base with a shotgun when I had access to nearby private land, but that was long ago. My skills are not as good today, simply because I cannot practice dynamic movement with a shotgun nearly often enough.

I never understood the insanity of some ranges.

Take a load of 3" 000 buck to the chest and tell me its not formidable

kgpcr said:

Take a load of 3" 000 buck to the chest and tell me its not formidable

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Uuuhhh ..... not a very helpful comment.

Rexster said:

TexasRifleman brought up a good point about places to practice with shotguns realistically, but I have a worse problem with realistic rifle practice. Even my employer, a large PD, is no help regarding rifles, as I can only shoot a rifle once a year on their range, when qualifying, and NO local public/private ranges seem to allow anything except slow-fire from a bench, or perhaps prone.

One local outdoor range, that insists on shooting rifles only from a bench, does at least allow shotgunners to shoot at silhouette targets while standing. A local indoor range allows shotguns, and last I knew, buck was OK, just no slugs, due to the limitations of their backstop. Of course, an indoor range, with booths limiting one's movement, is not ideal for practice with a long gun.

I am glad I was able to develop a skills base with a shotgun when I had access to nearby private land, but that was long ago. My skills are not as good today, simply because I cannot practice dynamic movement with a shotgun nearly often enough.

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This is EXACTLY why I chose to learn the shotgun (mossy 590 A1) instead of a carbine, in spite of excellent carbine instruction nearby. MY local indoor range allows unlimited shotgun use including slugs (NO steel shot), but no rifles over .22 LR.

Also as you say, the local outdoor ranges allow ONE cartridge per clip -- VERY slow fire only. Forget about that!!

Before you purchase a firearm, be SURE you have a place you can shoot it A LOT. Just my $.02

The laws of physics haven't changed, .730 is still bigger than .223 and 437.5 grains (one ounce) is still heavier than 45 - 75 grains, even if 1600 FPS is less than 3200 FPS. No, nothing has changed to make shotguns any less formidable.

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The laws of physics have certainly not changed. But that applies to recoil as well. While I agree that it is a formadable weapon, and one that is still near the top of my list, folks are finding that a lighter weight carbine in 223 is every bit effective at getting the job done.

At this time the only real advantage the shotgun has is in cost.

I will readily tell you that while shotgun enrollment has declined, carbine enrollment has increased.

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I see three reasons:

1. Carbines are "sexy".

2. Carbines have less recoil for those that eschew recoil.

3. Poor judgment.

Truly, can there be a better weapon for defensive purposes under stress? Range is limited, but at the edge of double ought range, you can easily run away/take cover/etc.

RMD

The range comment is good. MY local range started allowing shotguns after they added on a rifle range this year. I bought a shotgun after I learned about that. However, they restrict shotguns to only two weekdays per week. But, it's better than nothing. I guess the main thing keeping me from a shotgun was that I really had nowhere to practice with it, except places more than 30 minutes away with hourly rates and extra charges if you don't use THEIR ammo.

Now it's the same deal with a rifle. Where can i realistically practice at 100 yds? There are a few places around here, but they're all "gun club" dealios, with a bunch of required member meetings, voting, several "orientations," and hundreds of dollars in range fees. I'm sure it's quite clean, with responsible and safe members, but really... I am a recent grad. I can't afford that stuff.

It seems to be fashion. I was at the Nation's Gun Show in Va, and I saw that there was an age gap between shotgunners and carbiners. The guys who were going after the shotguns tended to be guys who were at least in their 30's with many of them having the appearance of being in their 50's. The guys checking out the carbines were the younger teens and twenty-somethings. Having fired both low-caliber slugthrowers and shotguns, I have to say that I strongly understand the appeal of the carb over the shotty. It looks cooler, has bigger "clips" (loads of tacticools in carbines), fires the military round, cheaper to use, easier to control, less recoil (a good shotgun doesn't hurt too much if you hold it properly), and carbines are customizable. I personally have my eyes set on this Mossberg 500 police variant.

Ever seen that scene from Scanners? The one where the guy's head explodes in a blast of gorn? That was done by taking a realistic fake head, putting a loaded 12 ga shotgun to the back of it, and firing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY-03vYYAjA

That isn't CGI; it's all real.