Shotgun no longer a formidable defensive weapon?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'd add that while I do believe the shotgun is a formidable weapon, I use an AR as my HD long gun. I'm just more familiar with that platform so I tend to rely on it more.

 

[walking arsenal]

Well I'm not following the trend then. I just put my AK in the locker in preference for my Mossberg 500 for a defensive role.

Why?
1) Shotguns are legal almost everywhere and are seen as "Less scary" by the sheep.
2) I have a browning BPS with similar controls. It doubles as my practice gun.
3) Lack of ranges in Northern Minnesota make it easy to practice trap in the backyard out in the country without worrying about neighbors.
4) I live in a city. As far as urban hardware goes a shotgun does well. It has punch up close and then loses that punch rabidly unlike 7.62x39.
5) I can't find 7.62x39 up here. 12ga is everywhere.


I agree that the AR carbines are seen as sexy. They are very light, have a high ammo capacity, and low recoil. That said, after working in a couple gun shops I think they are often bought by people who substitute their brains for money and can drop 5k on a high end carbine and a carbine course.

Not saying serious shooters don't do that too. Just that a lot of young guys, maybe fresh out of the service, seem to be AR buyers.

You also can't attach a ton of stuff to a shotgun that gives you bragging rights. Guys love bragging rights. As is in "this here is my______with a________and a_______with the double_________and the tuned_______. It cost me_______"

Which isn't nearly as impressive as "This is my $300 Mossberg 500. It shoots lead"

 

[richardc2000]

I agree with your last statement...which is why the 1st round in house gun 12 ga mossberg is rubber shot (just racking can cause skid marks in your underwear) - Rubber is lethal at short range and shot guns are messy. I do not want to put that trauma on my better half -but on the other hand, its nice to know that she would not hesitate to use the next five 00s either. My Judge is always assessable, even a .45/.410 barrel looks like a cannon when you are looking at the business end.....

 

[benEzra]

Yes, the shotgun is an extremely formidable weapon. However, the carbine does have some advantages in its own right (far less recoil/faster recovery, better capacity, more precision) and a carbine can serve for everything from across-the-room defensive shooting to 300-yard paper punching or whatever. Carbines are also a bit cheaper to shoot, I think.

There's also the fact that as hunting and wingshooting decline compared to other shooting sports, you have more new shooters getting into guns who have never fired a shotgun, but have experience with pistols and carbines/rifles. Add to that the fact that a lot of military veterans are already trained on the M16/M4, so it is natural that when they go out to buy a civilian gun they might gravitate toward an AR or other carbine rather than a shotgun.

As far as LE use goes, departments have been trending toward small-caliber rifles in addition to (or sometimes in lieu of) shotguns for well over a decade. A good article on the rationale for that shift is Roberts G.K., "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant," Police Marksman, Jul/Aug 1998, pp. 38-45, and many of those reasons are just as valid for the HD role.

"INTRODUCTION

"Until recently, the 12 gauge shotgun has remained the universally accepted shoulder fired weapon for United States law enforcement use, despite the shotgun's limitations as a general purpose weapon--short effective range, imprecise accuracy, downrange hazard to bystanders, small ammunition capacity, slow reloading, and harsh recoil. While 12 gauge shotguns still have a valid law enforcement role, especially to deliver specialized munitions and possibly in close quarters combat (CQB), recent recognition of the shotgun's significant limitations as a general purpose weapon have prompted many American law enforcement agencies to begin adopting the more versatile semi-automatic carbine for general purpose use.(12) Semi-automatic carbines offer more accuracy, less recoil, greater effective range, faster reloading, and a larger ammunition capacity than the traditional shotgun.
...
"Less well known is that 5.56mm/.223 rifle ammunition is also ideally suited for law enforcement general purpose use in semi-automatic carbines.(5,6). It offers superb accuracy coupled with low recoil, and is far more effective at incapacitating violent aggressors than the pistol cartridges utilized in submachineguns and some semi-automatic carbines.
...

"CONCLUSION

"A 5.56mm/.223 semi-automatic carbine with a minimum of a 14.5" to 16.5" barrel may be the most effective and versatile weapon for use in law enforcement. When used with effective ammunition, the 5.56mm/.223 carbine simultaneously offers both greater effective range and less potential downrange hazard to bystanders than a 12 ga. shotgun, handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or SMG , as well as far greater potential to incapacitate a violent criminal than any handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or SMG.
...
The routine issuing of 5.56mm/.223 semi-automatic carbines for general purpose use to all law enforcement officers would significantly enhance officer safety, increase police effectiveness, and decrease dangers to innocent bystanders in all situations requiring the use of firearms."

 

[MD_Willington]

FYI
OO = .33 , ~8.4mm
OOO = .36 ~9.1mm

Either way, I still don't want it anywhere inside of me.

 

[bubba in ca]

Things tend to run in fads, plus I think many people who had a HD mentality now have a SHTF mentality. A sign of the times. Shotguns are tops for HD because of the closeup stopping power, carbines come into their own for civil disturbances, real or imagenary.

Laziness is also part of the factor: handguns are the overwhelming preferred HD gun because the are light and convenient. Too bad most folks can`t hit anything and even if they do, handguns just don`t have the stopping power for closeup violent encounters. Shooting a motivated felon with a handgun is a little like bringing a knife to a gunfight, at least if you are in the comfort of your own home where you don`t have to worry about carrying or concealing a weapon.

 

[oneounceload]

Perhaps your customers are voting about your prices with their feet - that IS what happens when prices get too high - and in this economy, it might be a real issue.

 

[1stmarine]

In a close quarters defensive situation you want to minimize liabilities.
The reliability of a pump is unquestinable. There will be nobody to provide backup or cover fire for you in the event of a failure.
Therefore the shotgun with the turkey load is extremelly reliable, effective and will reduce liabilities. If you want to use an AR or similar use frangible ammunition that, like the turkey load, will stop in walls and other materials.
Every bullet has your lawyer's name written on it.
LEO's can choose weapons system and normally have backup. At a home invasion with violence we don't.

 

[Dr.Rob]

1. North Hollywood shoot out led to more police department issuing AR-15 type rifles. Two slugs may have stopped that fight, but we'll never know.

2. When 911 (homeland security) and TARP funds went to rearm police departments, they bought new rifles, not shotguns.

3. Overall trending away from shotguns since EVERYONE is making black rifles, including Remington.


I enjoy shooting shotguns. An afternoon of busting clays is fun. A day of shooting slugs and buckshot is a bear. Shotguns are formiddable on both ends to some people.

 

[Armored farmer]

I don't have anything against the AR, but I don't own one. It will take a great deal of typing to convince me that a shotgun isn't the ultimate HD/SD gun. I'm not sure if a defensive gun needs to be capable of reaching any further than a 12 ga. buck or slug.

 

[1stmarine]

Dr. Rob. No doubt you cannot beat the carbine specially in those circumstnaces with those guys in North Hollywood using full body armor. Lots of things went wrong that day. I was thiking if just one patrol had a simple 18" police bolt action in .308 with a steel core round they might have ended the fight with just two shots but we will never know that neither.

So no question a nice carbine can resolve a lot of situations but you might not see them in many operations when you have potentially liabilities close by. I think that the frangible ammunition is seen as a nice alternative but when in doubt the turkey load/bb size is devastating and can be very effective.

I am just sending a friendly message to make sure people understand the risks of going the way of high speed ammunition for the average home defense use and that in those situations one should not feel in inferior position by having a 12 gauge weapon system. A concentrated shot with those loads leaves 90+% of the energy in the target with massive shock and deadly trauma.

Remington is doing the black rifles too as they really are DPMS. Remington, DPMS and Bushmaster they all belong to the same company holding.

Just like FN, Browning and Winchester they all belong to the Herstal group in Belgium. They market the same but use a lot of the same finished and semifinished product.

Cheers.
E.

 

[sm]

My take.

The shotgun has always been and will continue to be a formidable weapon.

Now I just turned 56, and I come up where there was a shotgun behind the back door, most often, a youth, single shot. My take is simple, folks are not being raised with guns in the home nor are folks hunting as they used to. For many, the shotgun was affordable, and took the role of home/property duty, and putting food on the table. Bear in mind, folks often had "one" gun, and depending on where one lived, and the game hunted, dictated rifle or shotgun.
Still, shotguns were often more affordable.

I come up, where no tool is ever better than the user of said tool. So the shotgun as I come up, did NOT have to be the current "tactical" shotgun. Folks come up, knowing their firearms like a body part, be it rifle or shotgun, as they is all they had, that "one" gun.

They did not know back then, a shotgun or rifle had to have "_______", they just had handled it, and shot it so much, it could in their hands, do what needed doing.

 

[Crusader103]

Perhaps your customers are voting about your prices with their feet - that IS what happens when prices get too high - and in this economy, it might be a real issue.

Thanks for adding to the conversation but....

....I have no shortage of students. I am presenting two courses this weekend that are full, with several on waiting lists.

....nor are my prices outrageous. Similiarly qualified instructors, including some for whom I have guest taught and who have guest taught for me, charge upwards of $450-$750.00 tuition. I charge between $125.00-$250.00.

....I clearly stated previously that it's not a general decline, but a decline in shotgun courses only. I also added that many of those big name instructors with whom I associate are saying the same thing.

Perhaps you did not check my prices, or my reputation, and just wanted to write something for the sake of seeing your post pop up on the screen.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If you want to use an AR or similar use frangible ammunition that, like the turkey load, will stop in walls and other materials.

Around here an interior wall is two 5/8" thick sheets of drywall. If I am facing an immediate threat of death or serious injury, I'm not going to be using anything that is stopped by 1.25" of powdered gypsum backed by paper.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

As a firearms instructor focusing on advanced level courses, I present roughly 20 open enrollment courses per year and another 10-20 private closed enrollment military and law enforcement courses.

In years past, I have filled as many as six open enrollment combat shotgun courses, maintaining a waiting list for many. Today, I had to cancel a scheduled combat shotgun course due to low course enrollment.

I cannot attribute the cause due to a poor choice of weekends (I am presenting two other courses this particular weekend and both are full with waiting lists) and dare I say it is not the instructor (most of my courses max out). Having spoken to some other instructors we have agreed that there has been a definite decline in defensive shotgun course interest.

I am interested to hear the thoughts of forum members on why that is the case. I will readily tell you that while shotgun enrollment has declined, carbine enrollment has increased.

You can probably guess where I stand, but do you believe that the shotgun is still a formbidable defensive weapon? Do you believe that it has lost its niche? What role do you see the shotgun filling in the future concerning defensive weaponcraft? I know the trends, but has the carbine completely replaced the shotgun? Should it?

I know I am an instructor but I am still nostalgic. I hate to see the shotgun being relegated to the occasional 3-gun match.

Brother the Economy is hitting folks pretty hard. But I know at least 5 BG that are worm dirt today because they got on the wrong end of a 12 Gauge held by a Homeowner or LEO. 00 buck center mass at 15-20 feet ruins someones day forever.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Seems like LE are trending towards shotgun + less lethal/flexible ammo ie specialized door breaching.

LAPD created a big ripple by arming some street cops with an AR post N. Hollywood. Here in CO some cops made the same change after Columbine. Post 911 it just piled on.

I don't know anyone who really LIKES shooting a lot of buckshot & slugs. Training could change that of course.

 

[memphisjim]

I'm going with the cool factor and ban scare. I have a cousin who wants an ak47 for apartment defense His " research" to choose this is primarily YouTube videos. I've tried to talk him into a cheap 12 gauge pump but he won't hear it. Also it may be something to the effect of thought that the at will be banned any day now and shotguns won't. Also what we saw in the after effects of katrina one can imagine having to suppress a mob.

 

[BikerRN]

In a home defense situation I would look at the AR and the shotgun and ask myself one question:

If I had an intruder about to make entry in to the last room in the house, which me and my family is ensconced in, which platform would most likely give me the ability and power to stop that intruder with one shot?

This is one shot people. There are no double taps, no magazines of reloads, or anything else. For me the answer always comes back to the shotgun in that scenario. Homeowners have a different job, and face different situations, than the responding LEO's. The power of the shotgun is unmatched by any rifle or handgun platform that would be reasonable for home defense IMHO.

While I can use a shotgun out to about 100 Yards it's best application, in my expirience, is at ranges one normally uses a handgun. If I knew I was going to be in a handgun fight, at handgun ranges, I'd opt for the shotgun if I could. Defending the last room in your house from intruders would be seen as handgun range by most folks, unless you live in a mansion.

BikerRN

 

[matt_borror]

I think it has nothing to do with its effectiveness and ALL to do with trend and number of uses. While you could shoot targets...it's not as challenging as with a rifle unless you're shooting skeet. You also get to shoot more for less money. While many people view the shotgun as a point and take out a room kind of gun, it isn't and people need to realize that you still need to aim a shotgun. Also, people don't have as much money these days so instead of owning a rifle/pistol for sport/rec and a shotty for HD, they just buy the rifle/pistol.

 

[1911 guy]

The shotgun is still as effective as it ever was. The difference is the now general acceptance of the carbine platform and the "cool factor" of many who have training dollars to spend.

 

[bubba in ca]

I thought the `cool factor`was AKs`. Newer models, some made in the US, peasant proof technology, Whoohoo!!

But , I digress.

We live in a consumer society. There is just no status in a firm knowledge that you can blow away a charging felon with just a $200 maverick and some skill and guts. How retro can one get?
To be secure you have to spend the big bucks, not just the almost $1000 for a good AR, plus umpteen mags, and whatever other goodies. Dont`forget the camo gun case to take it to the range, and rails, OMG how did anyone every fight, defend the peace, or defend themselves without rails!!!!
All things considered, it is just very difficult to spend as much money on a basic pump.
No big price tag, no satisfaction.
I have a big Swiss Army knife. You know, the one with all the bells and whistles. I bought it 30 something years ago and it was last seen a few years ago in one of my tool boxes. My daily carry is a 4 blade Swiss.

 

[Wheeler44]

Many folks would rather accessorize a "tacticool" carbine than practice with a shotgun.

OP... If it's about the money, sell doodads and gewgaws for the carbine.
If it's about the business plan, schedule a few "pimp my carbine classes".

Us old fuddy-duddies will still use some old pump shotgun for fun and social engagements.

 

[millertyme]

I think if you compare the relative price of the tacticool shotgun to the basic ar and multiply by the coolness factor of an AR or an AK you'll see why. I agree the shotgun is just as effective today as it was in years past, but when it costs $850 for a new 870 Police Magnum that is pump action with a seven shot tubular magazine compared to $750 for a new AR that is semiautomatic, has a thirty round magazine, and can reach out a little further it's pretty easy to see why the AR is being picked over the shotgun.

That's not to say that an 870 Police Magnum is what everyone wants, but compare the semiauto shotgun market to the "assault rifle" market and for a little more than an 870 Express you can get a CAI AK.

 

[1stmarine]

Around here an interior wall is two 5/8" thick sheets of drywall. If I am facing an immediate threat of death or serious injury, I'm not going to be using anything that is stopped by 1.25" of powdered gypsum backed by paper.

Bartholomew,

That's ok if you feel this is the best option for you but penetration has no bearing over the terminal effectiveness of a round. No relation at all. Actually too much penetration is a sign that the round is not leaving much energy in a soft target.

ARs and AKs are all great systems, I have many of them in different flavors, but I want to make sure people understand two things:

A) A high concentrated spread of turkey/bb shot is extremely deadly. Normally at the average range in a raid/CQ/home invasion even more devastating than multiple shots from a high speed FMJ round with a higher chance of positive impact. Even w/o centermass the shock is tremendous. That gunshot in a human torso will not go all the way and maybe a few of bbs will make it through but most will show up in the back/back ribs as little pimples in the skin and after destroying all the organs in its pat. It is a gruesome sight and a dead body.

B) When a high velocity FMJ round leaves your barrel can go through things like a car, several walls, and other commonly used materials in the average home so if you are in urban area you need to think about this. You are liable for that bullet even if it is just intended for the bad guy that wanted to hurt you. So if ends up killing or hurting somebody else you will pay the consequences.

Several ammunition manufactures have published their data and found that a turkey shot based type of round (Sometimes mixed with a low load of BB side) is the one that gives the most reliability and effectiveness minimizing liabilities. I think that Remington HOME DEFENSE and others make something like this. These are facts backed by actual data, not opinions.
The buckshot can be perfect too but doesn't have to be the biggest most powerful one to be effective and in any case consider who is in the next room or how far away is your neighbor's home.

The normal civilian purpose is very different from the LE / patrol when they are in a shootout outside where they might want to have that AR or the shotgun with buckshot to go through those car doors. Again, purpose is what defines what should be used. The pump shotgun still I see in almost every patrol car wherever I go. This doesn't mean that there isn't an AR-15 in the trunk or close by and I think this is a very good idea these days.

This is something that one should study very carefully based in some of these scenarios.
I have seen the situation and it is not pretty for both the innocent person hurt and the shooter that didn't even considered this could be possible. Besides the legal consequences, mentally and morally it will hunt you for as long as you live.

Shoot often and be safe.
Cheers,
E.

 

[bratch]

That's ok if you feel this is the best option for you but penetration has no bearing over the terminal effectiveness of a round. No relation at all. Actually too much penetration is a sign that the round is not leaving much energy in a soft target

How does penetration not matter? If the round can't penetrate to the vital organs or CNS you are having to rely on a phsycological trauma to get the threat to cease. I'd rather have a round that penetrated enough to hit the plumbing that actually matters.

When a high velocity FMJ round leaves your barrel can go through things like a car, several walls, and other commonly used materials in the average home

This may be true but civilians and LE aren't limited to FMJ. There are several .223 rounds available that have shown acceptable terminal ballistics and fewer chances of over penetration than even pistol rounds.