Shotgun no longer a formidable defensive weapon?

[BBQLS1]

I'll just echo what others are saying......

Shotguns are not fashionable, they aren't as easy to shoot, they kick harder, they are harder on targets, they get expensive to shoot.....

I'm not sure anything is more formidable as a defensive weapon.

I have two short barreled shottys and am itching for an 1897.... I still don't have an AR.

As far as classes... for me, I don't get enough handgun training and I need it more than shotgun training. If I use a shotgun, I'm going to be behind my bed with it trained on the door. I'd really like to take a shotgun class, but I can only afford to do so much.

 

[Averageman]

A pistol to defend my self.
A Shotgun to defend my home.
A Carbine to defend my property.

A couple of reasons why the carbine has gained favor over the shotgun in classes both civilian and LEO's
Military training now is mostly done with the carbine, most young LEO's come from a Military background.
There has been a push since the L.A. shooting to up gun our LEO's with carbine's.
The advance of optic systems, especially red dot sights has made shooting a carbine easier.
Recoil in Shotguns -vs- Carbines, most of this is "percieved" recoil; i.e. stories of Uncle Jacks Goose Gun knocking someone on their butt.
It takes more work to run a shotgun efficently than a carbine, most of this is percieved also.
The carbine is generally just smaller and handier to carry both in a patrol car or the family truck.
Ammo stays in small handy magazines for a carbine, in a shotgun you have to be a bit more inventive.

That being said you need to know both.

 

[BikerRN]

Shotguns have lost their perceived role for the time being.

That's OK, as things tend to cycle, and those who know how to find their butt with both hands and a flashlight will continue to worship at the alter of the Guage. In short, shotgun is "Old School" and I'm old. I didn't get old by jumping on the latest fads.

As people gain more expirience and training I think their eyes may be opened to the viability of the Guage. Continue to teach what you teach, and maybe pay homage to the shotgun in your other courses by dropping a word or two in favor, or comparing how one would do something with a shotgun as opposed to whatever platform they are using at that time. Thus you can "plant the seed".

When they are ready to sprout, they will let you know and you can form a class. I wouldn't discontinue your shotgun courses all together, but maybe do them on a request basis. Why not do a handgun with some shotgun tactics introduced with 80% focusing on the handgun? Thus planting that seed again.

If I could only have one firearm, make it the Guage.

BikerRN

 

[btg3]

One possible reason, not yet mentioned, is capacity and/or reloading.

I started looking at Saiga shotguns mainly because of the appeal of 10-rd magazines, but was quickly dissuaded by the price tag for 922r compliance. If blasting away is "your thing", rifles with 30-rd mags will turn your head away from 5-shot shotguns.

Instead, I'm developing reloading skills with my 870 (4+1) and am putting together another 870 (7+1).

Locally, a new defensive shotgun match started 3 months ago and is drawing 20 to 30 shooters per match. These shotgunners can't get enough and want weekly matches instead of the monthly match. Even so, most of the guns are pistol-gripped, tactical shotguns which somewhat evidences the influence of image versus practicality. For some (mainly younger shooters?), this same influence results in choosing an EBR instead of a shotgun.

If TV/movie stats were available to compare how frequently handguns/rifles/shotguns make an appearance, my guess is that shotguns are relatively obscure. Overall, shotguns are behind the curve insofar as marketing is concerned. And when you do see a shotgun, it usually gives the impression of "can't miss with a scattergun" so why practice or pay for training?

If you want to increase enrollment in combat shotguns classes, you may have some work ahead of you.

 

[mbt2001]

I have always wondered why LEO's and departments do not issue the 20ga... I think it has something to do with the macho culture / history at many departments. Just saying....

 

[Cosmoline]

The cost of ammo for shotguns has gone up. Slugs in particular are very $$. For a five pack of slugs you can get a much larger amount of .223 or surplus ammo. Birdshot is available, but apart from skeet and trap and such (inapplicable to defensive shotgun) it's of limited use. You can tear up target frames really quickly.

If I could figure a cost effective way of reloading slugs for practice I might well phase back into 12 ga. But at this stage the expenses are a major consideration, and unless I can get a lot of practice I don't really want to rely on the weapon platform

 

[richardc2000]

i employ both a mossberg 500 and the Judge

 

[Grey_Mana]

Politics aside, I would venture that classes not filling is due to high unemployment, inflation of food prices, gasoline predicted to hit $6/gallon by summer, and the reasonable expectation that the economy will get worse.

The type of person interested in defensive weapon training is the type of person quickest to watch pennies more carefully.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think the shotgun is a very formidable defensive weapon, I think it is losing ground to the AR because of:

1. Cost of training
2. Recoil
3. Widespread acceptance of carbine by LE and mil, due in part to new LE focus on a more aggressive counter to active shooters.

Civilian self-defense shooters are typically strongly influenced by the miltary and LE. As LE goes more and more to the carbine, civilian shooters are likely to follow because that is what their cop friends will be telling them to buy and there is a ready market in terms of knowledge base, accessories, training, etc.

 

[coloradokevin]

A shotgun is a weapon without equal in many ways. For a person who is making a stand against a burglar, or other type of home invader, I doubt I could think if a weapon I'd rather see them use.

At work my department lets us choose between a shotgun or rifle as an auxiliary weapon. I personally carry the rifle, but that's mostly because of the types of engagements I may face in law enforcement (active shooters, distance shots, multiple attackers, a hostage shot, etc). In that environment I also like the idea of having 30 rounds on board instead of 5 or so.

But, in the home defense environment I'd sooner reach for a shotgun than a rifle. The distances are closer, the need for lots of ammo is smaller, and the need for immediate incapacitation is high.

The shotgun does have some drawbacks: heavier recoil, lower ammo capacity, and shorter effective range, to name a few. But, in my opinion, a well placed slug or 00-buck load will probably drop an assailant faster than any other practical type of home defense weapon.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Shotguns aren't as "fun" to shoot.

Shotguns tear up paper targets. Steel targets are expensive and many shooting ranges don't allow them.

Many shooting ranges don't really lend themselves to good "self" training with a shotgun.

Shotguns have less ammunition capacity than carbines.

Felt recoil is greater with a shotgun.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

Don't forget the Hollywood shootout wherein shotguns could not penetrate the perp's armor.

 

[PowerJoker6.0]

if someone is breaking into my house, my M4gery is gonna get knocked over as my 870 pump comes outta the case each and every time, and my 870 doesnt even have a tacticool flashlight like my M4gery does. guess im just a realist...

 

[Deaf Smith]

Shotgun no longer a formidable defensive weapon?

Unless human anatomy has changed.... I doubt shotguns have lost anything.

Deaf

 

[Good&Fruity]

It's not all that it used to be for police and military use. For civilian home defense, SHTF, camp gun, etc. it's still more than enough. It's stopping power is unquestioned.

 

[evan price]

Irony?


00 Buck is roughly 9mm, same as 38 special.

Two trigger pulls with a pistol = 2 holes (let's say .36")
Two trigger pulls on my double-barrel coach gun = 18 holes about the same size (and I can shoot both barrels at once, so it's ONE trigger pull really...)
Two trigger pulls on my Winchester pump riot gun = 30 holes about the same size (3" magnum 15-pellet 00 buck)

Shotguns aren't sexy, they don't usually have rails and lasers and tactical lights and collapsing stocks and Acog sights. They are heavy, they are bulky, they have RECOIL, and they aren't cool the way an AR-type gun is nowadays. They aren't very tacti-black. I guess that's why so many people try to make a "Home Defense" shotgun with peep sights and acogs and rails and lights and folding stocks etc. and it needs to be tacti-black, a Moss 590 or equivalent.

My old M500 with wood furniture does just fine...

 

[bbuddtec]

Shotgun no longer a formidable defensive weapon?

Cmon, that's inciteful, anyone who knows, knows that comment is bs.

Trends are powerful. You can't beat TV.

 

[BBQLS1]

Shotguns aren't sexy,

I disagree.

OP, maybe if you catered to the CAS crowd?

 

[Stope Rat]

My employer has made both shotguns and AR's "specialty weapons" that are issued to select individuals rather than sitting in a rack in the car. Over the last 12 years I have been either a shotgun or a rifle operator - depending on where I was assigned.

During that period I've had multiple 40-hour classes, plus twice-yearly quals, plus 9-hour refresher shoots every quarter. Plus quite a bit of "hey it's sunny - let's go to the range and rotate our ammo."

I have also had the opportunity to respond to multiple shootings involving long guns, and to investigate the results. Some of those investigations have involved test shoots into wallboard, ballistic gelatin, body armor etc.

PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS: The shotgun is a formidable weapon, and in many ways is easier to master than the rifle. It is also big, heavy and bruising to practice with.

The rifle is lighter, more versatile, more accurate, arguably every bit as lethal, and has greater range. A big plus is that with proper ammunition, the risk of over-penetration in an urban environment is less than with a shotgun, and even less than a .40 cal loaded with hollowpoints. (The flip side is that the "proper ammunition" doesn't work for s@#t on cars.)

My house gun? An AR with a light mount, a Reflex sight and two magazines of lightweight frangible ammunition. The SHTF option includes more magazines, including a few loaded with barrier penetrators.

Back to the original question? I don't think most people see the shotgun as "cool" anymore -including most LEO. With more small-statured officers being hired, there's not as many big beefy types that laugh about shooting 50 rounds of slug in an afternoon. There are fewer "pimped" shotguns on the walls at the gun store, so less people see that they can be turned into a versatile system.

 

[Crusader103]

Shotgun no longer a formidable defensive weapon?

Cmon, that's inciteful, anyone who knows, knows that comment is bs.

Trends are powerful. You can't beat TV.

A tongue in cheek question designed to elicit thoughts on why there is such a trend away from the shotgun. Of course I know a shotgun is a formidable weapon. I have been training advanced users on them for 14 years.

Your second line I can agree with. Users tend to select a firearm, and therefore train with said firearm (if they train at all), based at times on things other than the usefulness of the platform. The exposure a certain firearm receives on TV is one of those reasons for trends.

That's all I was really getting at and looking to glean a general consensus on from the forum.... why not the shotgun when it is such a formidable weapon?

Thanks to all for the responses, much of which I tend to agree with. It's still a shame though that I'm not seeing as many shotguns. It is a great platform.

 

[Bix]

Don't give up on us, jscott - there are still a good number of folks out there who gladly allocate some of their training dollars to shotgun classes.

I do note that at least a couple of the travelling trainers have as many (or more) shotgun classes on their 2011 schedule as carbine classes. There is certainly some market out there.

If there is any truth to this rumor - perhaps that market will grow

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=246698&start=0

 

[Ole Coot]

A shotgun is the best HD weapon I have. Racking the slide usually tells most folks something. I keep 6 or so in my defender, safety off, rack and go. The handgun I can reach faster and is useful to get to the shotgun. I can only think a shooting today should be "sanitized" and not the blood and gore from a shotgun. I don't think some people, if they haven't witnessed real damage in combat want to see the mess.

 

[cleardiddion]

I really do like shotguns personally but I've chosen a rifle/handgun combination for my HD.
Why?
I can't find a place within a reasonable distance/price range to get as much practice with as with a shotgun.
It's not like a shotgun is no longer suitable for social work but if you can't get enough practice to get/retain proficiency it's not something you want to rely on.

 

[1stmarine]

In a farm/ranch is good to have both. Shotgun for the home/farm and the rifle to get coyotes or whatever.
In an urban area, an AR or any other high power system with considerable speed and penetration is a liability. So a shotgun with a nr.5 or nr.4 turkey load is safer and will take down any threats at close range w/o much problem. The reliability of a high capacity pump still is the prefered weapon for close quarters by many officers and military.
Cheers,
E.

 

[MikeNice]

I think that most people aren't training with shotguns for two reasons.

One is that they believe the "point and pull" myth. They think if they point it in a general direction and pull the trigger the gun takes care of the rest.

The second reason is that many people are more thoughtfull of the over penetration and collateral damage factors. Several people I know have chosen an AR or other rifle because they feel like any potential miss is likely to be less damaging to their home and loved ones. I personally believe that is a bigger concern the more "urban sprawl" we see.

Just my opinion based on personal observations.