So I was watching this show the other day, I think it was called Auction Hunters or something like that. They were buying storage units at an auction and then selling the stuff inside of them. To do this they were traveling all over. A few of the units had firearms inside of them. So my question is how can they legally buy these? Do they have to take them down to an FFL dealer and do paperwork, and they just edit out that part? It seems like a FTF wouldn't work since both parties wouldn't always be residents of the same state. I just wondered what's going on in the back here that they edit out? Also being that they are buying them with the intent to resell wouldn't they also have to have an FFL for this? Or is there some exemption in these cases?
How can they do this legally on shows like Auction Hunters?
- Thread starter slowr1der
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TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Yes. Legally whoever owns the storage facility will have to have the guns transferred to them first then they are transferred to whoever buys the unit contents. I suspect they check them for being stolen as well, and would have to forfeit them if they come back stolen.
As far as buying guns with the intent to sell, that does not require an FFL. Buying guns with intent to sell as your primary source of livelihood requires an FFL. Lots of threads on that around here.
I did see one episode in California where they went to an FFL and discussed the paperwork requirements.
As far as buying guns with the intent to sell, that does not require an FFL. Buying guns with intent to sell as your primary source of livelihood requires an FFL. Lots of threads on that around here.
I did see one episode in California where they went to an FFL and discussed the paperwork requirements.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
They'd have to handle the transfer via a dealer just like anyone else. They most likely edit that out.
I think auction hunters isn't so much a reality show as it is an "Actuality Show." That is they reshoot the story of the best finds. Thus, there is no need to worry about an FFL as what you are seeing isn't real; it is being recreated.
Keep in mind they have a 26 episode season. That would be a lot of auctions to film if they only want to show the good stuff.
Keep in mind they have a 26 episode season. That would be a lot of auctions to film if they only want to show the good stuff.
armoredman
Member
As Zane said - it's all Hollywood, like those insane programs such as Southern Fried Stings, Operation Repo, and Lizard Lick Towing. They state at the beginning of OR and I think the others that it is recreated.
Now the one the wife watches, Storage Wars, they have showed a few nice double barrel shotguns found. If in AZ, (which none of these programs ever would be), check for stolen, and if clean and not sawed off/defaced/otherwise made illegal, and you're not a prohibited possessor, they're yours, have a nice day.
Some of the stuff they "show" in these lockers is a riot of giggles that people would pay to store boxes of old worn out clothes and other garbage.
Now the one the wife watches, Storage Wars, they have showed a few nice double barrel shotguns found. If in AZ, (which none of these programs ever would be), check for stolen, and if clean and not sawed off/defaced/otherwise made illegal, and you're not a prohibited possessor, they're yours, have a nice day.
Some of the stuff they "show" in these lockers is a riot of giggles that people would pay to store boxes of old worn out clothes and other garbage.
dogtown tom
Member
Not exactly.
ATF considers the repetitive buying and selling of firearms for profit as "being engaged in the business of dealing in firearms"....there is no requirement that it be your primary source of livelihood.
Guillermo
member
I think you are wrong on that.
Expect Riflemen to post the pertinent statute soon
dogtown tom
Member
Here is the word from ATF:
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TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
dogtown tom said:
The law says :
The law also defines "principal objective of livelihood and profit":
All the words matter. If you are buying houses and sometimes you find guns, that's not your regular course of trade or business.
So in this case clearly the "principal objective of livelihood and profit" is met, but the requirement that it be a "regular course of trade or business" is a bit of a stretch I would suspect. So yeah, you are right that the ATF considers just about any selling as "engaged in the business", but that doesn't mean they are right or would get a conviction.
How many of these storage units have guns in them? 10%, 20%? Unless you're hitting guns most of the time I don't see how you could get to "regular course of trade". Their regular course of trade is buying used storage units and selling the contents. Sometimes there are guns, most times there are not. Now, doesn't matter if you are doing it in another state, you need an FFL anyway.
Buying guns with the intent to resell them is not a crime in and of itself. At some quantity yes, you cross the line, but there is no defined number for that. Might be 2, might be 50, only a jury can answer that, not Agent Billy Bob.
All that really matters, as with most things in the law, is what the jury thinks. But the truth is that juries ARE swayed by what Agent Billy Bob testifies.
If I were these guys I'd get a C&R at the very least, seems like most of the junk they find falls into that category anyway.
KodiakBeer
member
If I find a gun (or guns) in a storage unit, they're mine. If I decide to sell them, the money is mine. Selling a gun doesn't make you a gun dealer.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
That's a good point too, and another for a jury to decide.
If you buy a storage unit not knowing the contents, are you really "buying guns"? You might be selling them, but did you buy them? Sort of... but not "intentionally".
Jury might be out for a while on that one.
I absolutely agree with dogtown tom that you're asking for a visit from the ATF guys if you do it repetitively. I'm just not sure you'd get convicted.
Probably no case law on this at all, and only a crazy person would want to be first.
Guillermo
member
that is the money shot
ElToro
Member
i know that my triple lock came out of a storage locker. Some old guy buys them locally and occasionally comes upon a gun. wanting to be legal he sells them on consignment at my LGS. i come bopping in one day and this ugly thing was hiding behind the counter and i say how much and my buddy says dude hasn't priced it yet. i say call and offer $250. it took 3 seconds for a yes. i think i offered too much. yes the pre war magnas came with 
100 years later its dead on accurate with good .44 spc ammo
100 years later its dead on accurate with good .44 spc ammo
going completely on what was said on auction hunters the one gentleman Ton stated that when you buy a unit unless it is previous knowledge of the selling party that there are firearms in the unit they do not have to do any transfer papers on the arms and may treat them as if they were theirs... but if the seller knows the guns are there then they will have to do a transfer through an FFL
again pure hear say and I know this is illegal but its there butt not mine
again pure hear say and I know this is illegal but its there butt not mine
dogtown tom
Member
If you bought a storage unit in your own state of residence and it contained firearms....you can take possession immediately under Federal law.
If you buy a storage unit outside your state of residence and it contains firearms....you cannot take possession per Federal law UNLESS you hold a Federal Firearms License. Handguns may only be acquired in ones own state of residence.
Federal law is VERY clear.....a nonlicensee (when outside his state of residence) may only acquire rifles and shotguns from a licensed dealer and the law makes no distinction as to whether the seller knows guns were in the unit.
It's TV...........and the producers/writers/directors could care less about the legalities of the scripts they write....they want entertaining TV and explaining Federal law isn't entertaining.
earthworm
Member
2 comments
Does anyone here really believe BATFE's gonna jack with 2 guys with a national television show backed by a network & the lawyers they have/would get?
But I can appreciate their CYA attitude.
I saw these guys high-fiveing after selling a H&K P7 for $200 (OK;the blue WAS kinda worn-call it 90%). A mite lo-ball IMAO.
Does anyone here really believe BATFE's gonna jack with 2 guys with a national television show backed by a network & the lawyers they have/would get?
But I can appreciate their CYA attitude.
I saw these guys high-fiveing after selling a H&K P7 for $200 (OK;the blue WAS kinda worn-call it 90%). A mite lo-ball IMAO.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
If they violate federal law ... absolutely.
billybob44
Contributing Member
But the truth is that juries ARE swayed by what Agent Billy Bob testifies.
Come on TR--Not ALL of us are Agents...Bill.
Come on TR--Not ALL of us are Agents...Bill.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
LOL sorry, no offense intended. My deepest apologies
Wow, that shoe tastes horrible.
pikid89
Member
i did see one show where a dude bought a unit with a bunch of guns and if i recall he had to pay a bunch to get them all transferred
Shadow 7D
Member
BECAUSE THE SHOWS ARE BASED IN CALIFORNIA
Please don't confuse the rest of the US with Kommie Fornia
Please don't confuse the rest of the US with Kommie Fornia
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Might be that. Or might be that he'd driven across the state line to place a bid on that lot and won a bunch of items he couldn't legally take home with him without transferring them.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
In every episode of Auction Hunters I have seen where a firearm was found & sold, it was sold to an FFL dealer.
I hadn't noticed any private sales going on.
rc
I hadn't noticed any private sales going on.
rc
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
The one episode I saw did take place in California. And they did explain the process on the show. Played out like this:
1) The owner of the storage building legally owns the guns, he just doesn't know it because he hasn't opened the sealed units.
2) Show guys buy the contents at auction. They said that under California law the unit owner had to transfer it to them, and so off they go to an FFL who explains to the show guys that there is a waiting period, then they can come get the guns. They do the transfer from storage unit owner to show guys then, and waiting period starts.
3) They go back after the waiting period and get their guns, then take them to their "expert" who, after the obligatory shooting at cool stuff, offers them some price and buys the guns. Since he's an FFL all is well.
Seems correct to me.
1) The owner of the storage building legally owns the guns, he just doesn't know it because he hasn't opened the sealed units.
2) Show guys buy the contents at auction. They said that under California law the unit owner had to transfer it to them, and so off they go to an FFL who explains to the show guys that there is a waiting period, then they can come get the guns. They do the transfer from storage unit owner to show guys then, and waiting period starts.
3) They go back after the waiting period and get their guns, then take them to their "expert" who, after the obligatory shooting at cool stuff, offers them some price and buys the guns. Since he's an FFL all is well.
Seems correct to me.
henschman
Member
The rub would be with how the property goes from being owned by the delinquent renter of the storage units to the owner of the storage facility, if the two parties are residents of different states. If the property is granted to the facility owner by contract or by a court order, and it includes a firearm, then the renter just transferred a firearm to someone without going through an FFL as is required by law.
However, if the renter abandons the property and the facility owner takes it, there has been no transfer. It is legally the same thing as if the renter left his gun sitting on a park bench with the intent to abandon it, and the facility owner came along and picked it up. It is not a transfer if you just abandon something and someone else takes it.
However, if the renter abandons the property and the facility owner takes it, there has been no transfer. It is legally the same thing as if the renter left his gun sitting on a park bench with the intent to abandon it, and the facility owner came along and picked it up. It is not a transfer if you just abandon something and someone else takes it.
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