Legality of short shotgun such as Ithaca Auto & Burglar

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orpington

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Many questions here...I understand very little about this...

An auction site has a pair of these coming up for auction. I think I recall the same pair coming up for auction a year or so ago. They are neat, but a bit out of my price range, plus I don't have the funds to "eat" should I own one of these and the Federal government decides to collect these if made illegal.

My understanding is if you purchase one of these it has to be held by the seller, I presume, while the BATF and local police do a check? Can take a year? Can be rejected if aforementioned parties wish to do so for no apparent reason??? Which might be why these are being auctioned again. Purchaser last time might not have been approved??? Feel free to correct or criticize anything as I know very little about this.

These are legal because someone in 1934 paid $200 for a tax stamp? Given that was half a year's wages someone paid a year's salary to register the pair. So, what if the tax stamp had been lost on these. Is there a registry or database.

And, given the cost to purchase the tax stamp in 1934, how many were registered then, how many destroyed, and how many hidden somewhere? Which leads to the last question: Let's say an elderly woman presented these to the auction house, knows nothing about them, says sell them, they were her father's and stashed in the garage for 75 years, then what happens?

And, with all of the above, I think a big reason not to purchase is because, even if you are approved to purchase these, it raises a red flag with the local authorities.

I've never handled an Ithaca Auto & Burglar gun before, but they fall into the wow, neat category. Just like a Van Gogh painting. Wow, neat, but I'll never actually handle one.
 
You'll pay another $200 now to acquire an "NFA Item" if that's what this shotgun is (not familiar with the named make & model). Shouldn't raise any red flags with your local authorities, providing the firearm is legal in your state & local jurisdiction. As for the old lady, she's not going to jail. :D
 
You'll pay another $200 now to acquire an "NFA Item" if that's what this shotgun is (not familiar with the named make & model).
The transfer tax is $5 for an "Any Other Weapon" (which is what an Ithaca Auto & Burglar Gun is). Still, the approval process takes as long as other NFA items.
These are legal because someone in 1934 paid $200 for a tax stamp?
Initial registration in 1934 was free.
 
..... They are neat, but a bit out of my price range, plus I don't have the funds to "eat" should I own one of these and the Federal government decides to collect these if made illegal.
"If"? While they may try, I don't see it happening.



My understanding is if you purchase one of these it has to be held by the seller, I presume, while the BATF and local police do a check?
It would transfer to a FFL/SOT in your state. ATF and local police have nothing to do with the background check, thats the FBI.



Can take a year?
It can take longer, but I'm getting stamps right now that were submitted five months ago.




Can be rejected if aforementioned parties wish to do so for no apparent reason???
No, you won't be rejected "for no apparent reason".........if denied, they will tell you why.



Which might be why these are being auctioned again. Purchaser last time might not have been approved???
They may not have been legal in the buyers state or the buyer may need rent money.





These are legal because someone in 1934 paid $200 for a tax stamp?
AOW's transfer on a $5 stamp nowdays.



Given that was half a year's wages someone paid a year's salary to register the pair.
What makes you think the same person bought both?



So, what if the tax stamp had been lost on these. Is there a registry or database.
If the "stamp was lost" it doesn't matter. The stamp is proof of tax paid. ATF keeps the NFA Registry. It is supposedly rife with errors and missing information.



And, given the cost to purchase the tax stamp in 1934, how many were registered then, how many destroyed, and how many hidden somewhere?
No one really knows.




Which leads to the last question: Let's say an elderly woman presented these to the auction house, knows nothing about them, says sell them, they were her father's and stashed in the garage for 75 years, then what happens?
The auction house cannot take possession without a lawful transfer ......a Form 4. If the firearm was never registered then they could not lawfully take possession and the owner would need to relinquish possession to a museum, LE or gov agency.




And, with all of the above, I think a big reason not to purchase is because, even if you are approved to purchase these, it raises a red flag with the local authorities.
Red Flag? In New York City maybe, not in Free America. The number of NFA firearms transferred each year exceeds 100,000. Thats a lot of flags.
 
Thank you dogtown tom. You cleared up several misconceptions.

More questions. Is there a link for an NFA registry search?

I was nor aware that NFA transfers annually exceeds 100,000. I had guessed far, far lower.

Why is the wait so long? Seems like it should be no different than filling out the 4473.

I guess if the auction house took possession of these they must be legitimate. I brought up the elderly widow part because I'm sure that happens from time to time and she might come into possession of an unregistered AOW.

It seems really backwards that she could not just register one of these at any time. Not sure why a 30 day window existed once decades ago and never since. Why and how bizarre???

In any event, maybe thus I can consider one of these some day. But what jurisdictions/states might reject a purchase?

And, lastly, you mention confiscation would never happen. Are you sure? It seems that if the party less favourable to firearms should control the presidency and one or both houses, it would be relatively easy to change existing laws.

I should have asked why an Auto & Burglar gun or other similar weapon is regulated any more than a handgun would be. Both have short barrels and project lead at high velocity.
 
These are legal because someone in 1934 paid $200 for a tax stamp? Given that was half a year's wages someone paid a year's salary to register the pair. So, what if the tax stamp had been lost on these. Is there a registry or database.
I think you may be confusing different types of NFA items. There is a finite number of civilian legal full autos. No more civilian legal ones can be made, which is why the price on them is so insanely high. Short barreled shotguns, on the other hand, can be manufactured and sold brand new (with the right paperwork and fees).
 
I should have asked why an Auto & Burglar gun or other similar weapon is regulated any more than a handgun would be. Both have short barrels and project lead at high velocity.
The same reason that it's legal to have a rifle with a 16 inch barrel without registering it, but if you have a shotgun with a barrel that length, you can go to prison. The same reason that it's illegal to attach a stock to your pistol (making it harder to conceal). Same reason you can legally attach a Magpul AFG to your pistol, but not a Magpul VFG.
 
I've eyed the auto & burglar , it's not too practical but it's cool. Too much $$$ and too much paperwork. There is a modern , no additional paperwork facimile of the auto & burglar , made by pedersoli and chambered in 45 colt & 410 - as to avoid NFA regulations (it has rifled barrels ) , a bit expensive but pretty neat and may scratch your itch without paying double or triple and without dealing with NFA , plus you could treat it as a shooter instead of a safe queen.
Just my .02
Screenshot_20201010-071635.png
 
More questions. Is there a link for an NFA registry search?
No. The NFA Registry is not a public record. The ATF will answer inquiries from someone in possession of a gun (or their attorney).
I was nor aware that NFA transfers annually exceeds 100,000. I had guessed far, far lower.
There are certain categories that inflate the figures. For example, flash-bang munitions purchased by local law enforcement agencies are registered as NFA items with the ATF (tax free, of course).
Why is the wait so long? Seems like it should be no different than filling out the 4473.
You would think so. But the wait is a feature, not a bug. It's more of a hindrance to NFA ownership than the transfer tax, which at this point is nominal.
Not sure why a 30 day window existed once decades ago and never since. Why and how bizarre???
There were two NFA "amnesties" -- one when the law went into effect in 1934, and the other in November of 1968. Free registration was offered in each. But people were distrustful of the government, and some didn't register.
There is a provision in the law under which the Attorney General can declare another amnesty at any time (although this would not apply to machine guns, because of the Hughes Amendment). The excuse given for not declaring additional amnesties is that they would interfere with ongoing criminal prosecutions or investigations.
But what jurisdictions/states might reject a purchase?
You have to check the state and local law, to see what categories of weapons are illegal in that jurisdiction. The ATF keeps a master list of such laws, and it goes by that list in granting approvals.
And, lastly, you mention confiscation would never happen. Are you sure? It seems that if the party less favourable to firearms should control the presidency and one or both houses, it would be relatively easy to change existing laws.
It's true that existing law can be changed. But the NFA is a regulatory model that is being used as an example by the antigunners. In fact, the official Biden-Harris platform proposes a vast expansion of the NFA , bringing in so-called "assault weapons." Anything that is already in the NFA, therefore, is likely to be safe.
 
There are certain categories that inflate the figures. For example, flash-bang munitions purchased by local law enforcement agencies are registered as NFA items with the ATF (tax free, of course)..
Form 5's for munitions may inflate the total, but my comment "number of NFA firearms transferred each year exceeds 100,000" is meant as Form 4 transfers.....and it's definitely more than 100,000.
See page 12 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/2019-firearms-commerce-report/download Just Form 4's was 128,000+ in 2018.
 
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