.36 caliber Navy Model Accuracy

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SwampMouse

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I spent most of Sunday shooting my 1861 Navy pistols in preparation for hunting season. I am not satisfied with the accuracy of either one and would welcome some help.

This was my procedure. Both pistols started clean and have tresco nipples. I used a gauge to set the cylinder gaps to .006 inches. I weighed charges from 21 to 16 grains in ½ grain steps. I fired all shots at 15 yards using Hornady 80 grain balls and a few Speer balls with Goex 3F powder and Rem 11 or CCI 11 caps. I used two different ways of adding lube. I still don’t have thick felt, so I am using old hat felt with tallow and beeswax liniment to make wads. I ran out of wads so I switched to lube over the loaded balls.

I ended up only shooting one pistol, so I cleaned it again after deciding to shoot only one and again after I finished the first box of balls. Then three more times before each 24 shots with 3 different loads at the end. After going through all of the first measured charges I weighed more at 19, 18 ½ and 18 grains and shot 24 more of each. The 18 and 18 ½ grain groups look almost identical. They are strung out vertically from 3 inches to 4 ½ inches, but they don’t have much windage variation.If the groups were round they would be close to 2 inches.

I can’t find a lot of posted information on target shooting with the Navy models. I have read where people say there is target competition with black powder pistols, but I’m not finding links to the organization or individuals doing it with any meaningful discussions on the ideal loads, etc. Any words of advice or where to look from those of you that have Navy models that shoot better than 2 or 3 inches at 15 yards would be appreciated.
SM
 
Black powder 'target pistols' are a very different set of creatures from our black powder revolvers and dont even bear comparison here.

I use an ASM 1851-36, done quite a lot of shooting and worked out a nice load 'for me'. 12 to 15 grains of 777 and the same amount of 'filler' (i used Cream of Wheat). That way the ball is just under the lip of the chamber. Then I smear lube over the top.

So.. try 12-15 gr Goex and same of COW and see how that shoots.

You want to try and load so that there is NO space in the chamber that isnt filled with something, so the ball is as close to the chamber mouth as possible.

The stringing vertically I have mostly found to be due to inconsistent loads, a couple of extra gr or a couple less. This is especially noticeable on lower end loads and those missing or extra grains can make a 20-30ft/sec difference for EACH grain.
 
Cyl gap is only one component. You also need to look at the following.

Check Cyl. lock up, cock the hammer then pull the trigger and SLOWLY lower the hammer, while keeping pressure on the trigger, rotate the Cyl. back and forth. There should be minimal play. If too much play is present, fit a new cylinder bolt.

Check the arbor fit. Remove the barrel and cylinder. Insert the arbor into the well so that the barrel and frame do NOT line up. (about 90 degrees to one another) If there is overlap you need to shim the arbor. Arbor fit or lack thereof is in my opinion the single biggest problem with most Colt clones.

When everything is properly fit, my navies will shoot about 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards.
 
I'm having problems with the pictures, maybe these will work.

This shows improper arbor fit, note the overlap between frame and barrel.
IMG_0599.jpg

I'll try to get a pic. of the arbor shim and post that.
 
rdstrain49 said:
Cyl gap is only one component. You also need to look at the following.

Check Cyl. lock up, cock the hammer then pull the trigger and SLOWLY lower the hammer, while keeping pressure on the trigger, rotate the Cyl. back and forth. There should be minimal play. If too much play is present, fit a new cylinder bolt.

Check the arbor fit. Remove the barrel and cylinder. Insert the arbor into the well so that the barrel and frame do NOT line up. (about 90 degrees to one another) If there is overlap you need to shim the arbor. Arbor fit or lack thereof is in my opinion the single biggest problem with most Colt clones.

When everything is properly fit, my navies will shoot about 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards.
Click to expand...
Hi rdstrain49,

The timing is actually very good on the older pistol. Our armorer has range rods for .357 and said I need to make one for .36, but the bore size and chamber size on the Navy won't allow that. There is very little play, I have PPC guns that have more play when locked up.

I know how to check lock up on Smiths, Colts and even the single action pistols and from what I can tell the one is pretty nice. The newer one has some burrs that need to be removed in the locking slots and I may have to get a new bolt that will fit all 6 slots, or open a slot or two and fit an oversize bolt. I quit shooting the newer pistol because I saw the lock up and timing issues as I was testing it. I will deal with it later.

The barrel face is square to the cylinder face which is one of the reasons I am setting it at .006 inches. I know some people say that is tighter than optimum for a cap and ball pistol, but I think they are talking more about reliability than accuracy.

What loads are you using to get 1 1/2 inch groups? That is exactly what I am looking for. With that I can make head shots on small game at 10 to 15 yards. I know the load isn't always the entire answer, but that is the one thing no one seems to post. I get all kinds of other tips, but I want loads at this time.

I understand all about the cylinder pin fit to the barrel. I'm going to put a spacer on the cylinder pin as soon as I determine the right cylinder gap, load, timing. lock up combination. I'm probably going to use a brass button from a dillon loading press like Pettifogger shows how to do over on The Open Range forum.

I would rather know what your load is.

Let me know.
SM
 
Pettifogger is right on the money. The only reason I don't use his method is I no longer have access to machines, so I do it all by hand.

While I'm thinking about it, don't get too wrapped up around barrel cylinder gap. If you watch the cylinder carefully from the side you will note that the cylinder is pushed forward and held forward as the weapon is cocked and fired. This is all together different than a modern Smith or Colt revolver. First pic. is hammer down, second is hammer cocked then released but with trigger still pulled rearward.

IMG_0622.jpg

IMG_0623.jpg

Here is what I came up with to fit the arbor.

IMG_0595-1.jpg

IMG_0625.jpg

Once the shim is fit, I silver solder it to the arbor. I'm sure others have other methods, but this works for me.

As for loads, I'll have to get back to you on that. I don't remember if my loads were BP or Pyro. I think the most accurate in this Navy was 15.8 Pyro by volume. Funny thing is, this revolver likes Pyrodex P better than Swiss of Goex.

PM me if you want, there a few other things that may help. btw, PPC was my first language for over 25 years.
 
Swampmouse,
I left a message on CAS City showing you how you can make an alignment gage. I won't post illustrations over here anymore.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40365.msg510627.html#msg510627

Pettifogger's button will work, you might want to experiment with a split washer first to see if the barrel is doing something funky when fired. That could be a reason for your vertical deviation.

Regards,
Mako
 
Here is my story. In 1968 I was in S4 for 1/3 Artillery, 2nd Armored Division. On Wednesdays we had the afternoon to do mandatory fitness but you could do anything you liked. One Wednesday I chose to take my Navy to the pistol qualification range. The little red haired girl went with me.

I shot some and she was getting bored so I talked her into shooting a cylinder full. On a standard pistol target at 25 yards she fired 5 Xs I couldn't find the 6th shot so it either went through one of the other holes or she missed the target altogether.

The load was, I don't know. I was 19 years old I didn't know there were different kinds of black powder pistols. I didn't know there were different kinds of black powder or caps. The balls, powder, caps were whatever the gunshop in Killen was selling.

Just filled cylinder with powder crushed the balls in and covered it liberally with Crisco. In my opinion you can over think some things.

The little red haired girl 43 years later.
SHERRYDUSTY.gif
 
Hey there rdstrain 49 - looks like you've got a nice macro lense!

What did you use for heat to silver solder the shim to the arbor? Will Mapp gas get hot enough?

I've got loose shims in my Uberti Dragoon that work great. My concern is that I'll forget about them when I dissasemble the gun for cleaning, which may mean they get flung into one of the dark corners of my garage and lost forever.

So soldering them in place would solve this problem.

Best,

Jason
 
N C
that is precisely why I silver soldered the shim. I use a jewelers torch, wait one, see if I can find a pic.

here ya go.

IMG_0343.gif

and 72 C is correct. Sometimes you can over think things. "K.I.S.S."
 
rdstrain49 said:
BTW Swamp Mouse, I don't shoot at big steel plates at 10 yards. I shoot 200 meter pistol. Precision is the name of the game for me. One shot, one,,,,well you get the idea.
Click to expand...

rdstrain49,
Why would you say that to me? I shoot very small furry or feathered moving targets from 10 to 75 yards. What are you insinuating? I really don't understand where you are coming from.
SM
 
Just a thought, but, what size balls are you using? and whats the make of the revolver?
Can you measure the bore and chambers?
 
aha... after re-reading your original thread, i think i may have found your problem

I weighed charges from 21 to 16 grains in ½ grain steps. .... . After going through all of the first measured charges I weighed more at 19, 18 ½ and 18 grains and shot 24 more of each.
Click to expand...

Black Powder is measured by VOLUME not by weight. Whilst weighing may look like its giving your consistent loads for each chamber, its actually not an accurate measurement for black powder. Each 'granule' of BP weighs different from the next (unlike smokeless which is very uniform).

To test this here are 5 loads measured by 20 grains volume, here are the weights

1- 16.7gr
2- 16.1gr
3- 17.2gr
4- 16.4gr
5- 16.8gr

pyro is about 20% less weight than BP, but you get the idea of grain differences.
Now those same volume loads will print about 1 1/2" for me on a nice day.

The stringing vertically of your targets show that each chamber is putting out different pressures.
 
This target shows three shots are normal pressure, and then two at slightly lower.
If these had been all the same 'load' then I would have expected all 5 to hit the same place.

IMG_0544_resize.jpg
 
That is my best 'to date' target on that revolver. The two lower shots I knew were bad due to click-fsst-boom which I put down to not cleaning those two chambers perfectly. Plus that target was 10yards, which is a lot different from 25!!! Your 25 aint too shabby either.

Note, I only have one BP revolver that shows this accuracy and I have worked on the bore, forcing cone, muzzle, timing, polishing internals, etc. Its an ASM 1851 and I love it!! Nearly all the rest which havent been worked on show wider groups. Load on that is 12gr powder 12gr cow, so, even the slightest drop of pressure drops the POI significantly. Its my most accurate load but I think I would only use it on rabbits at 10 yards or less, it would probably bounce off a deer!!


Anyhoo... Swampmouse, try again with a volume measure and see if it improves.
 
Cult of 1858 said:
That is my best 'to date' target on that revolver. The two lower shots I knew were bad due to click-fsst-boom which I put down to not cleaning those two chambers perfectly. Plus that target was 10yards, which is a lot different from 25!!! Your 25 aint too shabby either.

Note, I only have one BP revolver that shows this accuracy and I have worked on the bore, forcing cone, muzzle, timing, polishing internals, etc. Its an ASM 1851 and I love it!! Nearly all the rest which havent been worked on show wider groups. Load on that is 12gr powder 12gr cow, so, even the slightest drop of pressure drops the POI significantly. Its my most accurate load but I think I would only use it on rabbits at 10 yards or less, it would probably bounce off a deer!!


Anyhoo... Swampmouse, try again with a volume measure and see if it improves.
Click to expand...
Cult of 1858,
I was using an adjustable volume measure and still do. For these tests I wanted consistent amounts of powder. I have read both the pro and con of volume over weight and I think the weight is more consistent of the two. Once I find the correct load I will determine what the volume is and cut a spout on my loading flask to that amount.

I know the weights I listed are different from the volume measure I have, I can give them to you if I wish. I have been shooting small bore long rifles for a long time and all of my loading is by volume for them. For this I wanted exact weights. I used Lee scoops to get me close and then trickled in the final amount. By the way, the scoops don't match the weight shown on the chart at all.

Nice groups, is that from your 1851 or your 1858?

I think I have a problem with barrel movement because it's not bottomed out in the cylinder pin hole. Makos PMd me and gave me the link to some washers I can buy online that will temporarily give me a firmer base, I'm ordering some. He's already told me I am wasting my time weighing my charges. His contention is that consistent pressure against the powder is more important than a 1/10 grain of powder.

Thank you for the info and the pictures.

rdstrain49,
That is a nice looking group. I had a few that had about 4 that way and then threw the last two. You've got a bit of a vertical string going there as well. What pistol and load is that?

Thanks.
SM
 
Sure glad you all don't shoot at the Nationals. With shooting like that you
would win hands down and set new records that have been standing for
over 50 years. Just think you would go down in history. Good Shootin
 
What about the variability of compression with the ram? I don't know if there is a method of loading, at least on the revolver, while maintaining the same ram pressure on each bullet.

I remember reading once where long rifle competitors put their rifle on a scale when seating a bullet so they'd exert the exact same pressure each time.

How could you do that with a revolver.
 
loading pressure

I drew a line on the ram of my R O A so I always seat the bullets to the same depth/pressure. It works for me!
 
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