How Many Carry a 1911 with FMJ Ammo?

gc70 said:

I thought the OP asked what people carried in their 1911s; who would have known that it was really an invitation to a cage-match about what was best.

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No, that is not what the OP asked. He asked "how many people carry FMJ in a 1911" and "Anyone else less than enchanted with JHP's in the .45?"

I'm not sure how you interpret that, but it sounds a lot like he is asking about peoples opinion of FMJ vs JHP's to me. If it wasn't why did he start a thread...you know, where people discuss things...

Sometimes a 1911, sometimes a Glock 21.

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If your 1911 is a modern one, it was most likely designed to feed JHPs and the Glock is certainly designed to use them as it was aimed at the American market. I never heard of a gun being too dirty to feed JHPs and you should always maintain your weapons and inspect them.

Dirtiness of the gun is not what I am worried about, as any gun that is being carried or used for defense i going to be kept clean. I am more concerned about a mag follower tilting, letting the round nose dive enough for the JHP edge to hang and not feed well, or other similar problem. This might still happen with a FMJ design, but probably less likely.

Dillon 550. About 1980-1985. Load 3 hours every other day. I don't think my landlord, a DA, really understood why I had a Dillon press on my dining room table, but, he was ok with it, for 5 years.
Shoot 2-3 hours, at your own police range, every other day. No range marshalls, no limit on slow fire, just a boy and his Detonics Mark VI, Mac 10, and Gold Cup. Bullets were cheap enough back then to load what you carried, and practice with what you carried. Load came from Detonics. Also loaded a LOT of hardball, 230 grains, lead hard cast from a Nevada caster. That stuff was under.05 cents around, IIRC. It also was cast hard enough so it didn't lead, even at 1800 fps, out of a .45 Colt case, in a Seville/Linebaugh.

That said, by far the majority of my shooting was done by buying bullets wholesale, Shotgun News, through a local FFL, and using the Speer flying ashtrays, so If I ever had to use my carry gun, I knew where the bullet was going, and what it felt like.

I know it's hard for folks to remember what it was like back then.

Just like it's hard for me to get behind 1950's gun prices.

Also, when your best friends are the owner of Ballistic Research Incorporated, a genius high tech gunny that worked for Lockheed, and your boss is an ex-green beret, you are encouraged to shoot as much as possible, as often as possible. You are also not encouraged to just have sex with their sisters without getting married;-) B.R.I. gave new meaning to the term, "shotgun wedding!"

I am weird. We carried 000 and deer slugs alternating in our shotguns when I was a cop. I never got over that. I do that with most of my guns, in the 1911 though I carry a mag of Hornady Critical defense, a mag of Speer Gold Dots, and a FMJ Ball mag. If one doesn't work, I will get to the others. But I don't carry it too much anymore.

My AR is the same way. The 20 round mag on my bedside has 5 TAPs then 10 Ball, and in case they have really good armor on, the last 5 are steel cored penetrator rounds. A step up process I guess.

I apologize in advance if this has been covered.

I carry FMJ in all my carry guns because they deal with barriers (glass, car doors, dry wall, etc) much better than JHP. I know that I won't control the time, place, or circumstances of an attack against myself or my family. I carry a round that is a generalist. Since I will control my shot placement, I train often.

JHP will perform better (expansion is good), but only under specific circumstances. I've heard that some shooters carry a few rounds of JHP followed by several mags of FMJ. For me, I feel comfortable knowing that I have a round that is capable in all circumstances (as capable as any pistol round can be).

I would advise against selecting ammunition based on the circumstances that you believe you will be attacked. You will either be lucky, or you will be wrong.

DOL

Thats a very good point, Jedburgh

Posted by fal762X51:
No they won't let an outside reviewer see their data.

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They spent a lot of time and money gathering information and doing interviews with gunfight survivors. If an “outside reviewer” wants to verify it, he can spend his own time and money doing it. The information is all available to the public.

From a scientific standpoint, they will not allow verification.
A lot of people are still willing to put great faith in M&S data, but generally these people do not understand how scientific data collection and interpretation works.

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It was never presented as scientific, just what it is; results of actual shootings, not lab experiments.

I am not at all disputing the increased effectiveness of hollow point ammo, nor am I doubting their conclusions.

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Then we agree.

I would advise against selecting ammunition based on the circumstances that you believe you will be attacked. You will either be lucky, or you will be wrong.

DOL

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Sounds like this is exactly what you are doing.

You seem to anticipate your attacker(s) will always be behind cover when they initiate a deadly threat:

I carry FMJ in all my carry guns because they deal with barriers (glass, car doors, dry wall, etc) much better than JHP.

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While ball may perform better against these mediums, how likely would these scenarios be? If the badguy starts behind glass, car doors or drywall, how is he presenting an immediate deadly threat to you?

Bonesinium said:

I don't get this either. That is saying, I use something less effective because of an an idea that the thing that is more effective might fail, though it never has before. Really?

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1911's not feeding JHP reliably is EXTREMELY common.
My Gunsmith (a 1911 guy) told me that he regularly has to set up high end 1911's right out of the box to get the extractor and feed ramp working.

I have a low end 1911 American Classic GI that had to be shot a lot for break in and had to be 'smithed a bit plus getting elevated Feeder/Mags and now I THINK it feeds JHP reliably.
I still don't keep JHP in it because I only tried one Box and don't trust it yet.

I would advise against selecting ammunition based on the circumstances that you believe you will be attacked. You will either be lucky, or you will be wrong.

DOL

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Sounds like this is exactly what you are doing.

You seem to anticipate your attacker(s) will always be behind cover when they initiate a deadly threat:

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I carry FMJ in all my carry guns because they deal with barriers (glass, car doors, dry wall, etc) much better than JHP.

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While ball may perform better against these mediums, how likely would these scenarios be? If the badguy starts behind glass, car doors or drywall, how is he presenting an immediate deadly threat to you?

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David-what I'm advocating is using a round that will be capable regardless of where the attack begins or where it goes after it has started. FMJ will outperform JHP penetrating barriers, but would be inferior to a steel-cored round. Essentially, I'm picking the middle (conservative) path. Like I said, it's a good general purpose round. Great at nothing, but capable enough if the shooter controls where the rounds go.

As far as getting attacked around cars; it isn't much of a stretch that you or the BG will seek cover around a vehicle if you are assaulted in a parking lot and shots are fired. Cars have both doors and glass. Having a round that will shoot through these barriers is a positive and, in my opinion, outweighs the other advantages of a JHP.

I feel confident that every man will pick the round that he thinks is best in his specific circumstances.

DOL

So far I have only had FMJ loaded in my RIA for home defense since I have a limited budget and focus on spending my fun money on plinking ammo and range time.

Now I'm not entirely sure I need the JHP?

Dirtiness of the gun is not what I am worried about, as any gun that is being carried or used for defense i going to be kept clean. I am more concerned about a mag follower tilting, letting the round nose dive enough for the JHP edge to hang and not feed well, or other similar problem. This might still happen with a FMJ design, but probably less likely.

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The follower tilting in a pistol magazine I can't see happening, have you ever taken the mag apart? The 1911 has metal followers that, unless they are really really crappy quality, wouldn't break and I don't see how they could possibly bend. The Glock's is made up of high quality plastic that I also couldn't see bending or breaking in the magazine. There are rental Glocks out there with 100,000s of thousands of rounds through them and the only magazine problems I've heard of are the springs wearing out. Once again, you are creating your own problems.

So far I have only had FMJ loaded in my RIA for home defense since I have a limited budget and focus on spending my fun money on plinking ammo and range time.

Now I'm not entirely sure I need the JHP?

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I have a tight budget myself but I use Remington bulk JHP, it's around $36 for a box of 100 .40 S&W JHP. Unless your 1911 has a unramped barrel, you should be fine with the JHP.

In my opinion you don't really need the JHP but this is dealing with life and death, you want every advantage you can get.

FIVETWOSEVEN wrote,
The 1911 has metal followers that, unless they are really really crappy quality, wouldn't break and I don't see how they could possibly bend.

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He is not saying the followers are breaking or bending, he is saying the follower is tilting.

I am more concerned about a mag follower tilting, letting the round nose dive enough for the JHP edge to hang and not feed well, or other similar problem.

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These two articles may help illustrate the way a 1911 feeds rounds.

http://how-i-did-it.org/magazines/

http://how-i-did-it.org/magazines2/

He is not saying the followers are breaking or bending, he is saying the follower is tilting.

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If the follower doesn't break or bend, it can't tilt to the point of failure. Even so, it would be the last round effected, not the entire magazine.

This is for 1911's only, I make no claims for other pistols and their mags.

He is still not saying the follower is failing. He is saying the follower is tipping and allowing the round to hit the feed ramp at a non-optimum angle.

Tilting followers is very common, especially with 8 rounders. You will find each round in a magazine hits the feed ramp at just a slightly different point. Most common with the first three round from a mag.

If your 1911s mag has follower issues that cause it to jam, that's the magazines fault, not the ammo. If you've never had an issue in a few hundred rounds, then you are good. Can't see the magazine tilting to the point of failure without bending or breaking.

FIVETWOSEVEN wrote,
Can't see the magazine tilting to the point of failure without bending or breaking.

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It's not the magazine tilting. Nothing is breaking. It is the follower tipping within the tube. Think of a diving board. The leading edged of the follower tips forward (actually down) in the tube. This allows the bullet to hit lower on the feed ramp. This is generally not a problem with a longer round like a FMJ, but a short HP round could cause problems.

FIVETWOSEVEN said:

I have a tight budget myself but I use Remington bulk JHP, it's around $36 for a box of 100 .40 S&W JHP. Unless your 1911 has a unramped barrel, you should be fine with the JHP.

In my opinion you don't really need the JHP but this is dealing with life and death, you want every advantage you can get.

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Is that the "sure shot" stuff?

Jedburgh said:

David-what I'm advocating is using a round that will be capable regardless of where the attack begins or where it goes after it has started. FMJ will outperform JHP penetrating barriers, but would be inferior to a steel-cored round.

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And it's inferior to JHP in flesh.

it isn't much of a stretch that you or the BG will seek cover around a vehicle if you are assaulted in a parking lot and shots are fired.

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How could he get to cover if FMJ is:

capable enough if the shooter controls where the rounds go.

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Having a round that will shoot through these barriers is a positive

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Unless those barriers aren't present, then you have that whole over-penetration issue to deal with.

in my opinion, outweighs the other advantages of a JHP.

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A properly selected JHP would work very well on those barriers while maintaining it's enhanced effectiveness on clothed flesh. Worst case, it'll work just like FMJ.

1911's not feeding JHP reliably is EXTREMELY common.

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Not true. 1911's not feeding a PARTICULAR JHP is common enough to be worth mentioning, but any gun that will feed ball will feed some JHP's, and all of them will feed just about any hollowpoint with some tweaking - good mags, rounding off the lower 1/3rd of the barrel, polishing the feed ramp, etc.

In my experience, even stock WWII era GI guns with GI mags will feed Federal Hydra-Shoks 100% reliably. I'm sure there are other JHP's that work just as reliably, but my old 1911's have been range toys so it's not something I've experimented with very much, beyond the Hydra-Shoks.

It's a lot easier (and cheaper) to find a JHP that your gun likes than to try to make a gun feed a JHP with a poor feed profile.

It is the follower tipping within the tube. Think of a diving board.

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Hey, I'm taking issue with my own post. The follower doesn't bend like a diving board, but it can tip forward.

Sorry for being part of the problem.

KungFuNerd said:

1911's not feeding JHP reliably is EXTREMELY common.

I still don't keep JHP in it because I only tried one Box and don't trust it yet.

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There is a difference in not using them because they do NOT feed, then not using them because you THINK there is a greater possibility that they MAY not feed.

One poster said even though they have shot hundreds of JHP's without issue, he still won't carry them because he thinks there is a greater possibility of failure. THAT is an illogical reason.

Now if you haven't tested an ammo, you are right, you cannot know if it works well until you have tried it. So not using that ammo in a carry weapon IS a legitimate reason. No arguments there. I got some new self defense ammo to try out, but I haven't got to test it yet, so for now, I'm not carrying it. Some magical belief that it shouldn't or wouldn't work is not a legitimate reason though.

Hey it has been a long time since I have posted here, but I thought I would add my 2 cents for what its worth. I have been a trauma/vascular surgeon for about 20 years now. I have seen people shot with every thing from 22 LR to 30-06. Now obviously, people I see are not dead at the same, but some of them arrive to the trauma unit nearly dead.

Of the people I have operated on, and the projectiles I have recovered, or seen on X ray, I would tell you that hollow points do not expand as well as the companies that make them would claim. I have never seen an expanded 380 hollowpoint. I would say less than 50% of 45 and 9mm projectiles will expand.

Most hollow points just plug up, and dont expand at all.

Thank you Lone Gunman...this is the type of info I had referred to earlier and what ammo buyers really need to be aware of...again, no ammunition manufacturer will guarantee their hollow points to expand - it all depends on the mediums that they encounter and those can vary immensely...nothing wrong with using them but remember that it's just a "perk" if they expand, you should not count on it.