Teaching proper grip/stance especially with a pistol?

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DeadLiver

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I have a 21 year old brother. I take him out shooting when I can. However he can't hit anything. He can shoot clay pigeons with his 20 ga pump gun if he "ignores the front sight".

The only pistols I have are a pair of 1911's in .45, a 5" and a 3.5" officer's model. Both have the Hogue wraparound grips with finger grooves on them. I think his joints are all left elbows, he lines his fingers up on the ridges between the grooves on the grip. On my full size, he orients his strong side hand with his pinky hanging off, and weak side hand cupping underneath the gun.

I have spent a couple hours with him on dry fire attempting to teach him a proper grip like this:
grip2.jpg


However every time he picks up a pistol he does the same awkward grip and then has to stare at his hands and take 30 seconds to get into a workable grip. I've learned a good grip from observing others, experimentation, and taking advice from kind people who know more than I do.

I have tried and tried to teach my brother, but it seems impossible. I can't take him to a real range, because he can't put a bullet onto a 24" target beyond 5 yards. He ends up putting rounds into the walls and other people's targets.

Any advice on how to teach him effectively would be most appreciated. He is planning on buying a carry gun soon and getting his CWP. Here in UT there is no range qualification for a permit, so he could actually carry with no capability to effectively employ his sidearm and that scares me a little. I don't want to have to tell him not to carry because he'd be a menace if he ever had to use a firearm for self defense.

The problem here is probably just as much my instruction as it is his awkwardness. He's 5'10" about 160 lbs with no weird physical issues so he should be perfectly capable of learning good pistol technique.
 
If he can't hit a 24" target at 5 yards, his grip is the least of his problems. It's likely that he is slapping the trigger and disturbing his alignment. The test? Do dry/live fire drills with him. Tell him to turn away and you MIGHT load a cartridge into the chamber. He will perform exactly as he would if he knew it was loaded. The flinch will be apparent when you eventually DO NOT load a live round. Watch his reaction. I'm betting he needs qualified instruction and proper grip is but one element of that process.
 
Very true. I've actually done that with him, and worked with him on .22 rifles from a supported prone position to work on trigger pull, and honestly his trigger pull isn't bad. However as soon as he has to support a firearm he can't hit a thing.
 
As an educated guess by an old guy:
It's "because" he's your brother.
Got a shooter friend handy? Let him tell and show him. The light will come on.

Try teaching your wife!
 
Now that is a good point.....I'm not as patient with him because he's my brother, and as a by-product of our youth, he may still be afraid of getting his butt kicked.

As for my wife, she's really good when she shoots something that fits her, but she's a 4'10" 95 lb Asian girl, and doesn't want me to spend money on a gun or two just for her, and mine are too big, heavy, and have too much recoil for her, or in the case of the .22s too long. Maybe I need to fix up the old Winchester 190 and cut down the stock for her....
 
Without knowing more, I'll bet you're teaching him how he should be holding the gun without teaching him why he should be holding it the way you'd prefer. I've found that understanding why a grip is formed and positioned in a certain way not only helps someone establish that grip, but also helps them self-correct it when it is off. From you description, it sounds like he is teacupping the gun

The problem of course is that you have to do more than know how to grip a gun, you also have to understand the function of each part of the grip. Just looking at the grip pictured, it looks like you are using a Weaver grip (thumbs up) in an Isosceles stance (arm position)...you might even be using isometric push/pull tension. You might take a look at the link I have in my sigline about proper grip

Since you are mostly self taught, what you might consider is taking some professional training together with your brother. That way you'll both learn the fine points of shooting.
 
I know this is your brother, but if you are teaching someone you don't know real well another thing to take into mind is their medical history.

I have a plate in my neck that really limits my head movement, there is also damage to the nerves that run down my arm so there is little strength and sometimes not great movement in that hand. I had to change things around a little to be more confortable again. I also can not shoot anything larger then a .22 without a recoil pad....even my 410 shotgun hurts my neck. The other thing is it is very hard to hit anything using a rifle when not using a rest....it is what it is and I still have great fun in this hobby/sport, but it is just another thing to take into mind if you are working with someone new to shooting sports.
 
Fist-fire grip

The off hand thumb should point towards the target. Here's Paul Sharp shooting a Glock 21 with FULL POWER .45 loads. Notice case just leaving the ejection port:

glock.jpg

Photo taken from my FIST-FIRE Book © 2002 Tactical Shooting Academy

The gun is in FULL RECOIL. That's recoil control at it's finest. :cool:

For more information visit:

www.TacticalShooting.com
 
Without knowing more, I'll bet you're teaching him how he should be holding the gun without teaching him why he should be holding it the way you'd prefer. I've found that understanding why a grip is formed and positioned in a certain way not only helps someone establish that grip, but also helps them self-correct it when it is off.
Click to expand...

I've found that to be the case when I work with new shooters. People respond better when you explain a technique rather than telling them to "just do it this way." Once you explain the technique, I think it registers that it isn't just your way; that it is a way that works for many people and that they shouldn't go off and try to re-invent the wheel.

There has been an exception or two, a few people that were taught wrong and are hellbent on doing it wrong all the while explaining back to you WHY they are doing it wrong and why their way of doing it wrong is the way it should be done despite the fact that it clearly isn't working. In which case I have found that I can only help them if I lead by example and let their ego slowly fade away until they are tired of wasting ammo and willing to listen. After a few magazines and that look of desperation appears, I'll politely express that just maybe they should try a different technique, just to see if it works for them in a non-:neener: fashion.

Just to clarify...
a few people that were taught wrong and are hellbent on doing it wrong all the while explaining back to you WHY they are doing it wrong and why their way of doing it wrong is the way it should be done despite the fact that it clearly isn't working.
Click to expand...
There was a time when I was in that category so I have a little experience working with hardheaded (read:yours truly) people.
 
Trying to teach relatives to shoot is a noble yet ill-advised path. Get him into an NRA Basic Pistol Course and put an end to both of your frustrations. Right now you are teaching him that he cannot shoot a pistol and if you continue to re-enforce that thought, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
I hate being taught a how but not a why.

i ended up experimenting with my grip and stance till i found something i can shoot accurate and be comfortable.
 
I second the notion that he ought to go into a professional class.

I also wonder if maybe you ought to give him some long gun training. I would rather begin on a long gun because it's not too difficult to start out on a large caliber, thus giving a sense of accomplishment and ability to handle recoil.
 
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Maybe you should be starting him with a smaller caliber with less recoil until he gets the general gist of things. He may need to drop down to a BB gun. Wal-Mart sells a Daisy CO2 pistol that is for all intents and purposes a 1911. The price is about $35. The size is amazingly close to what I believe is a Commander size 1911. The trigger pull is very heavy (and straight back like a real 1911) but there is no recoil. I started a very slight built young lady who had never fired a gun on it and she was knocking soda cans off a 2X4 after about 15 rounds. I was going to take it apart and see if I could lighten the trigger a bit but haven't done so yet.

Try it, it just might be the trick that works.
 
He's afraid of the noise and recoil but he sure as....isn't going to admit it to his big brother. Give him a .22, a rest for his wrists and leave him alone until he can show your a target with 10 shots that can be covered with a quarter.
 
How is he initiating his grip? Is he grabbing with the fingers and pulling the gun back into the palm of his hand or is he setting the web of his thumb where he wants it, then the heel of his hand, and then using the fingers to hold it there?

If he is pulling the trigger with the teacup method of holding, there is more fundamentally wrong than just his grip. Even if you get his grip to look right, his muscles won't be doing the right thing and it won't make any difference.

Try this. Have him jamb the web of his thumb into the beavertail/grip safety of his gun. Then have him push the heel of his hand against the mainspring housing (His fingers are still open, the gun is either supported by his other hand or a holster). Then have him close his fingers firmly, but not tight.

Once he has that half done, have him place his supporting hand out about 18" or so in front of him, with the pinkey towards the ground and the palm facing back to him. Make the hand cupped a little. Once his hand is there, have him firmly push his other hand into the cup of his support hand. His support hand apply a firm rearward pressure to stabilize his firing hand. It's like he just punched his firing hand, with gun held, into his support hand. This push/pull relationship between the support hand and the firing hand is maintained the whole time he fires. now that he is in what appears to be a correct position and holding an empty gun check to make sure his elbows aren't locked and tap the bottom of his grips in an attempt to mimic recoil. the have him use his old grip and stance and tap again.... he'll see the difference in how recoil is handled. You can lead a horse to water...
 
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If he is pulling the trigger with the teacup method of holding, there is more fundamentally wrong than just his grip. Even if you get his grip to look right, his muscles won't be doing the right thing and it won't make any difference.
Click to expand...
That isn't necessarily true, you can shoot very accurately using the teacup method...just refer to Jay Lim from season 2 of Top Shot. It isn't optimal, but it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it as far as placing your shot accurately.

More modern grip styles allow more consistent grip pressure between shots and allow more consistency.

The grip he is using is much less important to shooting well than learning to press the trigger correctly...it is actually as much a mental exercise as it is a physical skill
 
I'm gonna throw my hat in here, might not be good advice but it worked for my wife (who now gives me a run every time we shoot)

Let him shoot/dry fire with a grip he is comfortable with and then make SMALL changes, practicing with each small change. Explain why your making the small change. It may take time but I found that by slowly adjusting her grip she adapted better to the changes. Though she was better than 24' at 5yards

All that said he does need profession instruction.

And sadly if he cannot ever hack it, then he DEFINITELY shouldn't be carrying.
 
That isn't necessarily true, you can shoot very accurately using the teacup method...just refer to Jay Lim from season 2 of Top Shot. It isn't optimal, but it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it as far as placing your shot accurately.
Click to expand...

There are people who can shoot extremely well using the teacup meathod. Most of those guys are also capapble of very accurate single hand firing. You will find though, that these people are more an exception than the rule. You'll also find that very few if any of these guys are record holders or champions in their respective sports (excluding bullseye shooting). I'd bet Jay could also shoot better than 24" with just about any grip he tried. I also bet Jay can correctly perform just about any of the standard grips (Weaver, etc.). I'd be interested in what he uses to teach more than what he uses himself. For someone who is demonstratably not able to shoot teacup, then he is doing more than just grip positition wrong. Opposing pressure with both hands perpendicular to the shooter is very easy to obtain with a non teacup grip, which is why I recommend it. Now, if he had the muscle control to shoot that well with a teacup grip, we wouldn't be having this thread.

If you notice, I don't say his grip is wrong, I say there is something else that is wrong in addition to the grip. His grip is probably the least of his problems, but it may be an impediment to him learning proper form.
 
Start from the ground up, one step at a time. Break it down.

First, have him shoot with the pistol rested on the bench so his stance is taken out of the equation and recoil just taps the bench top (don't do this with a safe queen). Then have him slow fire at a close target. This is the time to work on sight picture and the magic of focusing on the front sight.

Once he's figured that out, take the target out a few more yards and repeat. This will help expose trigger control problems. You can watch to make sure he's squeezing and not slapping or jerking.

After the sight picture and trigger control are learned, have him adopt an aggressive one handed stance (boxer balance, foot forward) and put the lessons to practice. It won't be terribly easy for him, but that's part of the point.

Once he's managed to do reasonably well one handed, THEN have him bring the other arm into play and have him start applying isometric pressure. Dry fire to start, then back to live. He should now realize the advantages of an isometric stance. One trick I found helpful was learning to push forward into the stance with my strong arm, and react to pull it back. I always start with the push, though. Starting with both hands together and then tensing is more difficult.

I don't believe there's a one-size-fits all stance when it comes down to it. You can show him the options and have him drill with isosceles, Weaver, Chapman etc. I can't tolerate isosceles, but the stiff-armed Chapman has really been a good fit. It's easy for me to lock into and close enough to a rifle that I don't have to re-wire my brain when going between the two platforms. It's not as good when trying to move around fast, but I don't move around fast anyway.
 
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His grip is probably the least of his problems, but it may be an impediment to him learning proper form.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree and said as much in the following lines of that post...being able to shoot accurately is about understanding basic sight alignment and trigger control

BTW: Jay is a golf pro, but he did have Chris Tilley and JJ teach him more modern gripping styles after the competition was over. His outdated shooting style was the result of a NRA instructor/range officer who was afraid to change how he was shooting..I suspect a lack of knowledge beyond basic safety and marksmanship
 
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