.22 Caliber penetration

Kiln said:

Personally if relying on a .22lr pistol for defense I'd fire multiple shots center mass and hope for the best.

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You must be a believer in one of the "magic" one stop pistol calibers. Which one do you recommend where you would use a technique other than that you described for the .22?

Personally if relying on a .22lr pistol for defense I'd fire multiple shots center mass and hope for the best.

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I'm not even going to "hope for the best" with my 9mm; I am going to hope that it only takes a few rounds, but I will be ready to shoot more.....with a .22LR I am going to empty the gun into the BG's chest (unless of course he stops being a BG before I finish unloading the gun).

Please. Does anyone realize how pernicious it is to promote the meme that a .22 is not a lethal weapon?

I have tested a Jennings .22 with a two inch barrel, with CCI Stinger, standard 40 gr, and Aguila 60 gr SSS ammunition against 2x4 and all three varieties easily penetrated 2 inches of solid pine..

Col Rex Applegate, author of Kill or Be Killed, considered any weapon capable of penetrating 1" of skin and flesh a potentially deadly weapon.

In a block of ballistic gel, a .22 40gr solid bullet will penetrate 12 inches, turning a flip midways and stopping base first. If I were a block of ballistic gel, I would quake at the thought of being shot with a .22

I would only use it if I had an American 180!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpeCrYzcR7s

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Perfect if you're Jimmy Carter being assaulted by killer rabbits.

Knives? I am not a trained knife fighter, takes as much training as any combat martial art to perfect and constant training and a young body (I'll be 50 this year and my joints crack and pop a lot). I'll take my NAA mini over a knife ANY day. I've very good with a handgun, knives not so much. I'd kinda prefer my NAA .22 mag Black Widow loaded with Hornady PD to my .22LR, but then, I'd prefer my 9 to that and my .45 Colt to that and my shotgun to that and a 105 to that and a 120 in an Abrams M1 to that and.................

45_auto said:

You must be a believer in one of the "magic" one stop pistol calibers. Which one do you recommend where you would use a technique other than that you described for the .22?

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Not even a little. It is only logical though that smaller amounts of lead means you need to put more holes in your target to get the same effect. One shot stops are for people who still think that the .45 will knock somebody down onto the ground and keep them there even from a hit in the shoulder.

Where 3 rounds of .45 center mass is likely to do the trick it may take several rounds that are less than half the size.

Even a .22 'CB' will penetrate through 2 milk jugs of water - or length wise through a fox squirrel in my experience.

I can not recall ever having a primer issue with top shelf rimfire ammo. Anything CCI will be every bit as reliable as bulk centerfire ammo. You can expect to shoot thousands of rounds without any dead primers, which would make a failure to fire statistically inconsequential in any properly functioning firearm.

I can not recall ever having a primer issue with top shelf rimfire ammo. Anything CCI will be every bit as reliable as bulk centerfire ammo. You can expect to shoot thousands of rounds without any dead primers, which would make a failure to fire statistically inconsequential in any properly functioning firearm.

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Properly stored, it takes decades to get any maypops of center fire. I can carry my NAA mini a month and 3 out of five won't fire. Sweaty, hot pockets contaminate the heal mounted bullet's powder/primer compound. So, I carry that gun as a back up, always rides in my weak side pocket, I simply swap out old ammo for new every Sunday. I save the old in an old CCI mini mag box and fire it up at the range. I still get use out of it and no contamination duds in my back up.

Now, I can carry my center fire ammo in a pocket indefinitely without fear of sweat contamination, goes bang EVERY time. I rotate out carry ammo about yearly, not weekly. But, it's also more expensive.

A 22, especially with FMJ ammo and when fired from a rifle will give quite a bit of penetration. A lot more than many understand. It still wouldn't be my first choice for SD, but would do a lot better then some give it credit for.

MCgunner
<SNIP>Properly stored, it takes decades to get any maypops of center fire. I can carry my NAA mini a month and 3 out of five won't fire. Sweaty, hot pockets contaminate the heal mounted bullet's powder/primer compound. So, I carry that gun as a back up, always rides in my weak side pocket, I simply swap out old ammo for new every Sunday. I save the old in an old CCI mini mag box and fire it up at the range. I still get use out of it and no contamination duds in my back up.<SNIP>

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I used to do exactly what you'd described when I carried NAA Minis. What you say is very true about the 22LR cartridge. The healed bullet lets dirt and moisture migrate into the cartridge over time, especially in humid climates, including one's pocket.

YMMV but experts said many times that penetration needs to be, at least, 12" and caliber needs to be wide enough to assure a larger permanent cavity. I believe them because they have spent more money than I doing research and multiple life-times of work in this area of terminal ballistics.

Human endurance and determination: this factor can trump even the most solid logical reasonings about terminal ballistics and this was seen in the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami. The 2 bad guys: one was shot 6 times and the other 12 times before they become a non-threat. And, the ammo used to hit them with were .38sp and 9mm Luger.

So, is the .22LR enough? You be the judge.

The only assurance of an immediate stop is a hit to the cns,brain,spinal chord.Is the 22lr capable of hitting the spinal chord or brain? Yes.

Around the house a .22 Mag derringer in the pocket is better than the 1911.45 ACP locked in the safe.

if a .22 were adequate as a lifesaver the police would carry them

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I wouldn't use that as a test for anything.

If one studies statistics on self defense stories, most "bad guys" are running at the presentation/firing of a weapon. It won't make any difference what the caliber is.

I'd fight anyone with 10 or 11 rounds of 22 in them.

(Regardless of using a .22 for self defence.....)
Back a couple of years ago, when my brother-in-law and his family got into Glocks he made this "phone book penetration" deal. Dry phone books stacked 6 deep. One inch space in between each. He and the boys took turns with various pistols....9's, .40's and .45's.

I remember before BIL took his first shots witha Glock 23 that he just knew it was gonna blow a hole through all six. It made it back of the third book. Just for giggles, and to satisfiy my own curiousity as to what the .22 single shot I loaded with Aguilla 60grain SSS rounds would do. Those consistantly made it deep into the 4th. book. I kind of knew they'd do well because those 60 grains shoot well out of my little M6 Scout.

Think about it this way, if a .22 were adequate as a lifesaver the police would carry them.

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This old and tired cliche never goes away, does it? While I still do not promote the "lowly" .22 as the best choice for self-defense, there is a stark difference in the duty of a LEO and that of a person lawfully armed only for self-defense. The lawfully-armed-citizen (LAC) is not expected to run toward the sound of chaos and mayhem, not is he sworn to actually try to get "up close and personal" with those who would word hard to make his wife and kids grieve. The LEO is indeed duty-bound to do all of the above. If he has to fire his weapon, it may well be at greater ranges not typical of the LAC's SD range, and may also be through barrier material (such as a car door or window) not typically present in private SD situations.
The person who chooses to shoot it out with a LEO usually stays until the end. The person who accosts a LAC (and only does so because he does not know his would-be victim is armed) will almost invariably turn and flee, ceasing to be a further threat, if the LAC is able to produce armed resistance.
I am a former LEO. I carry greater than a .22, but I do not carry all the hardware as a LAC that I did as a duty cop. I don't know any who do.
For purposes of this discussion, LACs are not police.

Lets see... 8 to 10 rounds of 22lr in the face? I sure as heck wouldn't want to be stung by those bees. That's all I'd expect from a pocket gun.

With all the above said.. count me a thumb's up for Rampant Colts first response. It sums it up... and the photo was right on queue as well. It's a can of worms .. that question will do it every time as well, on the forum's that I'm not a newby on.

.22 cb long from a rifle will produce the same result mentioned by OP. A .22 rimfire is a capable defensive weapon, assuming that the proper ammunition is selected.

As a Jerry's Kid, I have been in the unsavory position of having to really consider using a Walther P22 for defensive usage. Bottom line is, use a fast, heavy bullet, most all will deform in tissue and bone, fire until threat is neutralized (does not necessarily mean dead), and then follow through with proper legal advising.

Upgrade as soon as is possible, and relegate the .22 to a training/last ditch weapon. Even a .32 acp would be better (and in a full size pistol, recoil is comparable to a P22 with stingers.)

Good luck, take care.

its always about shot placement for me. 22lr to your heart isnt a good picture

A .22LR round has stopped a lot of men. Just not very reliably.

YankeeFlyr said:

A .22LR round has stopped a lot of men. Just not very reliably.

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Same goes for a large selection of different rounds.

No handgun is going to give reliable stopping power, including the cult worship .45. Google the George Temple/Perry Stevens shooing. Temple absorbed .45ACP rounds on top of a .40 fired from the cops gun. Not until Stevens shot him right in the head did it have any effect.

It all comes down to how well the shooter cows his gun. Shot placement.