Rock River AR15?

A large part of the anger here is so many people do so little research before buying an AR. By then there are few options, live with it, convince yourself and everyone else you made the best possible buy, or sell the turkey and buy what your belated research points to.

Quentin said:

A large part of the anger here is so many people do so little research before buying an AR. By then there are few options, live with it, convince yourself and everyone else you made the best possible buy, or sell the turkey and buy what your belated research points to.

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Or they do research an buy to their respective needs, but rather get annoyed at those that spent über bucks for nose thumbing rights trying to get into a peeing for distance contest. Jokes on them; they're the only ones with their junk hanging out.

From these types of threads it's rather obvious, especially with AR purchases, doing more homework would have helped.

Quentin said:

From these types of threads it's rather obvious, especially with AR purchases, doing more homework would have helped.

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Sure would. It would keep some folks from buying stuff they don't need, and get stuff they want. I've been down that same road, bought a mil spec AR, and found it unsatisfactory. Should've took more time researching what fit my bill, not what's cool.

meanmrmustard said:

Or they do research an buy to their respective needs, but rather get annoyed at those that spent über bucks for nose thumbing rights trying to get into a peeing for distance contest. Jokes on them; they're the only ones with their junk hanging out.

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Completely irrelevant when the better rifle can be had for the same price, or sometimes even less. That is my point that people don't seem to understand. Oh well.

From these types of threads it's rather obvious, especially with AR purchases, doing more homework would have helped.

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Seems like ArchAngel is doing plenty of research. If he ends up with an RRA AR, it will be an informed decision. Sounds like from his other thread he is leaning toward building one, even better.

I did plenty of research, looked at the chart, a thousand forums, etc... and ended up with a "mid-tier" as many would call it, but it is everything I want and more and I have no regrets. Posted the rundown of specs in another thread and it was acknowledged it was a pretty good list and the only upgrades anyone had for me was to buy a spare bolt, etc. Buying low or mid-tier isn't tantamount to uninformed.

ETA:

Completely irrelevant when the better rifle can be had for the same price, or sometimes even less. That is my point that people don't seem to understand. Oh well.

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Sorry if I missed where you posted links. As for me, unless someone shows me some Colts or BCM's for under $600 I will remain satisfied with my purchase

Captains1911 said:

Completely irrelevant when the better rifle can be had for the same price, or sometimes even less. That is my point that people don't seem to understand. Oh well.

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Umm...I don't think so sir. No, I don't understand. Just like, obviously, some folk won't understand the needs of folks that draw them away from these mil spec wonder guns that shoot minute of barn, don't need cleaning, have steel only the Hulk could bend? Pish posh, I like my accuracy, I like to hit things with my rifles, and I like them to be affordable. Been there, done that with the Pony gun, not impressed. Glad I made money off it, cuz it's sale funded two guns that suited me MUCH more. I'll pass on a faux GI gun: no matter how hard you try to justify, you're not getting anything but a neutered version of the Army's weapon. I'll stick with what puts pretty holes in deer, paper, and BGs if need be. Keep buying based on a chart, it'll drop the prices on other rifles for those of us that don't adhere to a fad.

I gave up on the rifle forum long ago thanks to threads like this and those informing every T, D & H they needed a Surgeon action, Lilja barrel and Manners stock topped off with a Nightforce to kill deer at 300 yards.

I have not and do not profess RRA
A) Makes the best AR in the world.
B) Is an amazing bargain.
C) Is building stronger rifles than those made to spec.

What I have claimed about RRA
A) My rifle and the rifles of other owners I've met have been trouble-free.
B) My rifle's accuracy has been outstanding.
C) At $1,100 I feel it was priced fairly for what I received.

I really can't understand in a thread asking for experiences with RRA rifles how some can claim that owner respondents are angry, bitter, uninformed, unhappy, foolish, ignorant, defensive or hoping to spread misery by recommending "lower tier" junk. We responded with overwhelming enthusiasm (with one exception) and honest actual accounts became the above laundry list of insults based not on personal experience but a spreadsheet of specific features. Now we've been told it's fine to think we have acceptable rifles so long as we keep it to ourselves? I can only take that to mean that discourse on a discussion board is not welcome lest it sing the praises of the chart and its adherents. That's a sad attitude worthy of the moniker uninformed.

What I have claimed about RRA
A) My rifle and the rifles of other owners I've met have been trouble-free.
B) My rifle's accuracy has been outstanding.
C) At $1,100 I feel it was priced fairly for what I received.

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I'll second that!
Realizing that advertising can influence publications (although sometimes you have to be able to read between the lines), I:
1. Can't recall ever reading an article with less than glowing praise for RRA.
2. Every person I've talked to at the gun shop has been pleased with theirs.
3. The biggest group that seems to love to hate 'em? seems to be on the 'Net.

I dont' care what folks buy, and don't have to justify my purchase to anyone.
The thing that irritates me 'bout some married to THE CHART is they start to remind me of certain Glock owners - unable to admit that anything other than a Glock (or THE CHART) is even to be considered.

The point of the Chart for civilians is to way cost vs relative quality. For example, my first AR 4 years ago was a DPMS Panther which I bought with @ zero research. Ran fine for a while, over time discovered issues with the rifle I..e. bolt carrier not staked properly. I did use the chart when I decided that the rifle which plays a large role in home defense needed to be as close to reliable as possible. I looked and shot 3-4 different brands and made an educated decision along with feedback from people that owned those rifles. The chart does serve a purpose, for the first time AR buyer...you can usually spend the same or a bit more and get a higher quality rifle.

I was looking to their elite comp 2, lar-15, middy.

I caved to the Colt herd when I found their LE discount page, for the 6920MPFDE.

From what I've seen online, firsthand, and second hand from buds:RRAs are quality rifles. Don' t let anybody tell you otherwise: the gun 'net has turned into a huge marketing bin.

So, why'd I buy a Colt? POTUS election almost coincides with the current RRA build times;60-90 days. Generally, they don't get cheaper as the elections approach.

Actually, the tougher consideration was the new batch of 7.62 ARs out there:ammunition prices.

Got a funny story for your fellas....

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'Course, after he gave you his answer, you did roll up THE CHART and beat him across the nose with it...?

Yeah, THE CHART.

I know there's a lot of qualified folks in that forum, but what I saw was more salesmen posing as Instructors, looking down their noses at everybody.

Anybody who's read the M4 chart and the descriptions long enough to get a good grasp of what it says would not laugh it off. Doesn't mean you have to upgrade your M4gery, just understand what's being compared. I would say study the bolt/carrier specs first, that's the meat and potatoes.

What people tend to see is their brand back in the pack so they dismiss the chart. I don't understand that... I saw my ArmaLite lagging and didn't get mad, I just wanted to know why. I found out.

The other thing many people never get is that it's only about M4s. If you have a RRA for target shooting or varmints, why would you be concerned about the chart. If you're building a fighting rifle then why not use all the info available?

Uhh, because "The Chart" is being used as a marketing tool for those who want their customers to fall into the ploy of a perception; mil spec is the ONLY fighting gun out there. B.S..

BCGs, FCGs, uppers/lowers are supposedly ONLY considered quality if they belong to Company xyz. B.S..

I've been shooting Colts since the 80s in the Army-hated them then, enjoy them now, except for the Colt fan bois who proclaim them Greek Gods of AR world.

Go to a certain forum and peer into the "build forum"; you'll see professional salesmen, being unprofessional and badgering people into ..."just buy the Colt and get it over with..." Build one, have fun....these "tactical Instructors" taking the fun out of it.

Anybody who's read the M4 chart and the descriptions long enough to get a good grasp of what it says would not laugh it off.

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I don't think folks are laughing at THE CHART, but more the attitudes of some folks that seem to think since it was handed down from the mount...

I'd probably tell folks I view THE CHART much as I do Glocks:
1. One of the best handguns ever made.
2. One of the most overrated handguns ever made.

THE CHART is 'bout the same, but for some folks, that just ain't good enough!

THE CHART makes for a good starting point - not the end point.

basicblur said:

I don't think folks are laughing at THE CHART, but more the attitudes of some folks that seem to think since it was handed down from the mount...

I'd probably tell folks I view THE CHART much as I do Glocks:
1. One of the best handguns ever made.
2. One of the most overrated handguns ever made.

THE CHART is 'bout the same, but for some folks, that just ain't good enough!

THE CHART makes for a good starting point - not the end point.

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So now you're suggesting, along with some other people here, that in CHART categories were RRA does not "match up" to other brands, that they actually exceed in those areas? Am I understanding you correctly?

Bottom line is facts are facts, and the information in the CHART is factual. Don't sit here and argue that the lower strength bolt and barrel steel used by RRA somehow makes them better, or that their lack of throughoh QA/QC testing makes them more reliable. Or that instead of properly staking the gas key they do something else "magical". That's absolute hogwash and you know it. As stated earlier, not everybody needs all the features laid out in the CHART for their M4gery, far from it, but that doesn't dismiss the FACT that some companies use lower quality materials and take manufacturing shortcuts to reduce their costs.

Another FACT to consider is that course instructors see a huge sample size of rifles, and thousands of thousands of rounds every year, and they tend to see certain brands hold up better than others. When the rifles are run hard, the differences start to show.

" Another FACT to consider is that course instructors see a huge sample size of rifles, and thousands of thousands of rounds every year, and they tend to see certain brands hold up better than others. When the rifles are run hard, the differences start to show. "


Meh. See, I AM an Instructor and a student. I have seen 2 day carbine classes in 85+ degree weather with rain/mud/sand, and 2000 rounds. Some of the most consistent rifles performing, coming and going to the courses are RRA and SIG. Those are two BRAND names that "they" HATE to see on that other forum as they must OBEY a brand name basis.

The differences DO start to show: the guys who bought/built the most expensive "mil-spec" are doing maintenance tear-downs instead of shooting, and/or distracting my manpower to get others to help them do it.

The " I am an Instructor " of tactical operations has turned instruction into a convoluted pile of salesman looking to cash in, and help their buddies cash in on the websites.

So the barrel is toast on a RRA after 10,000 rounds? Buy a new one; go to youtube and find the instructional on how to change it out. Big deal.

Yes, the chart is a supposed standard made by one guy. Companies like SIG and RRA are building outside the box, of the chart and thats good for the industry.

Some of the cool stuff out there now: the SIG AR in 7.62 that takes AK mags., and I think RRA has built one too. Good times.

Captains1911 said:

Don't sit here and argue that the lower strength bolt and barrel steel used by RRA somehow makes them better, or that their lack of throughoh QA/QC testing makes them more reliable.

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So what kind of steel do you think RRA use for their bolts, and what kind of steel for the "teir 1" bolts?

RRA said in their industry forum on AR15.com that they use Carpenter 158.

BTW on the MPI every part thing, honestly if an industrial manufacturing process is so marginal that every single part needs to be tested for cracks to insure it is OK, there is a serious issue with the process itself. Can you imagine if such practices were necessary for every stressed moving part in an internal combustion engine? Either the individual testing is unnecessary or the manufacturing process needs to be revised.

I have been on the boards for some time and I can't remember ever hearing of a premature bolt or barrel failure on a RRA gun. They built over 90,000 rifles just in the last 3 years (2008-2010). That is 360 per work day. Seems to me there is a good chance the parts are fit-for-purpose.

It's a fact that my Jeep is white. It's a fact that not all Jeeps are white. If white Jeeps were the choice of the US Army would my declaring it superior in reliability seem off to anyone? No one is laughing at The Chart. What has been repeated over and over and over is that blue and green and even red ones aren't inferior based on color regardless of the "official" color. If you want facts, ask users without presupposing we are all angry or disgruntled non-shooters that didn't know what we were doing.

FWIW I own two Colts 6920's, one BCM Recce16, one YHM Diamond Spectre and none of them do anything better than:



Trigger is great (especially compared to a mil-spec gun) and the accuracy is unreal. I am getting just over .5" with FGM.

Well, besides be lighter I will say this though. If it were to be a choice between the "Operator" line and the likes of BCM, YHM, Spikes or Colt...I would go with the latter.

I would not trade my RRA mutt for a Colt or anything else. Not even a LaRue, and that is saying something. It simply runs and puts rounds right where I want them. What more can I ask for?

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Yes indeed , reliability and accuracy are exactly the requirements I was looking for as well for my first AR. I wanted an AR that would at least give my TC Super 14 .223 a run for the money in accuracy.

While up at Camp Perry last week I was able to handle various Rock River models with the varmint model holding the most appeal to me.



I finally settled on the 18" Varmint above but had to get it online as Rock River only had a 16" Varmint with them. If the Varmint is reliable and shoots my match bullet reloads to the stated 3/4 MOA accuracy (or better) I'll be pleased.

... I AM an Instructor and a student. I have seen 2 day carbine classes in 85+ degree weather with rain/mud/sand, and 2000 rounds...

The differences DO start to show: the guys who bought/built the most expensive "mil-spec" are doing maintenance tear-downs instead of shooting, and/or distracting my manpower to get others to help them do it...

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Do you expect a reasonable man to buy that? You've got to do much better, how about providing evidence for one.

How 'bout all the nay sayers post up pics of their worthless, troublesome Rock Rivers along with a description of everything that went wrong (note went, not didn't have). I want proof of personal experience that has several people calling this specific brand more names than a Shanghai phone book holds.

Here's mine sporting its Mark AR scope, most times I shoot irons or run a red dot.



Let's see those pics and hear those horror stories now lest I turn the tables and call other people uninformed Internet commandos...waiting.