1911s suck (not my article)

If they suck so bad, how come every day more companys are springing up with new models. It's getting to the point that "BUDS" has a 1911 section now.
Everyone wants one. there are bound to be dissapointments as they have more than a half dozen parts in them and require an actual bit of knowledge to really enjoy them.
The point and shoot crowd will undoubtedlly lose interest in them very quicklly. Of course this will be the gun's fault, and at $350-400.00, it's impossible to build a 1911..Let alone sell one at that price. It will tarnish the guns reputation to the untrained or ill advised new shooter, who will assume that for $500.00 they should get a Glock like machine that runs forever with no maintenance, and little thought.
The words "idiot mark" say it all. I seldom see a 1911 for sale that doesn't have these words in the description. As if it is supposed to be a "given", as in, "has the idiot mark", or "Came with the idiot mark", Is someone adding this as an option?
So as they trample on the last bastion of our sacred 1911, I bow my head and wave goodbye to the last pistol to be turned out like a $2 dollar hooker. "showing my age".
Goodbye my friend, I thought you might slip by, but they got you at the border.
Wait until they figure out that they have to keep putting ammo in you, and they will quicklly tire and sell you as LNIB, only test fired, and throw in a holster for $100 more than they paid, Maybe we will meet again as they trade you in on the latest 25 round Taurus 9mm, or 40 round 22 magnum. "justkidding" sad thing is it's mostlly true.

If they suck so bad, how come every day more companys are springing up with new models. It's getting to the point that "BUDS" has a 1911 section now.

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Probably because its about the only model where they don't have to do any work except provide the equipment. Every other pistol is a slight remodeling or adding/removal of certain features. I don't think I've ever seen two striker fired pistols that really look "the same". 1911s are 1911s.

The post you quoted shows a lack of understanding of the 1911's history. Back during WWII the military did order multiple slides per gun. Why you ask? Because up until WII the slides were not heat treated at all.

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I am aware of the history, the argument was over the MEU(SOC) order not butter soft slides of old.

Sure I mentioned an "elite" group, LA SWAT, just as Glock lovers mentioned MEU(SOC). Both are great examples of professionals at the top of their game who chose 1911s. I don't claim to know more than they about which is best for them but some people do...had they chosen Glocks I would not have started a thread claiming Glocks were junk and these men were penny wise equipment foolish imbeciles who need a good learning from me. I did suggest to a local SWAT member, who I consider a friend, a traditional 1911 rather than the TRP he chose due to his unfamiliarity with the platform as a whole.

I chose vanilla, Coke, Ford and every Canon or Nikon I've ever had (5 total) has failed.

This thread begins with an article on why the 1911 "sucks" that is full of half truths and distortions. It ends with saying Jeff Cooper "sucks" as well. Some folks believe a good deal of what was written in the article and honestly did not know the difference between the content of that article and honest criticism of the 1911 as a platform. So folks tried to explain.

In that discussion a poster noted that if the 1911 sucked so bad and was such an inferior gun why had a special forces branch of the Marine Corp just ordered 12,000 1911s from Colt along with spare parts for them.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2012/07/marine-corps-marsoc-new-colt-45-caliber-pistols-071912

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/01/marine-marsoc-pistol-45cal-012511w/

This set off a few fellas who believe that the Marines were wrong in their pick and should have gone with another gun. Most often mentioned by them is the Glock.

The choice of the Colt will not replace the M9 which is the standard service sidearm of the Corp. The 1911 goes to those units which have been using 1911s for a very long time. Including some built and rebuilt on 50 and 60 year old frames.

The choice of the Marines does not mean that the 1911 is the greatest fighting handgun in the world...

From The Man With No Name:

. I will end my involvement by stating again that I find it comical that this type of thread will always bring out someone wanting to use some elite SWAT or elite military unit as the example of why the 1911 platform is still superior.

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I don't recall anyone saying that other than TMWNN. Folks cited the Corps preference against the charge that the 1911 "sucked".

There are several guns today (more than 100 or even 50 years ago) which I believe are better suited to arm a police force or to be the standard sidearm of an army than the 1911. But that does not mean that the 1911 "sucks"or that it's "day is past". It continues to soldier on in service around the globe and in law enforcement and is the preferred sidearm of many. This is because it continues to work.

tipoc

I am aware of the history, the argument was over the MEU(SOC) order not butter soft slides of old.

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Well...24-26 Rc isn't exactly butter soft. Fully hardened slides only hit about 32. I've seen modern "hard" slides with peening at the breechface around the firing pin hole, albeit with more rounds through the pipe than the average shooter will use in a lifetime. Personally, I wish they'd go back to the hardened insert. That thing was hard and tough.

One of the main advantages of heat treating the slide is relieving stress risers. They're not all that much harder than the dead soft...meaning the hardness of the steel in its raw state...3000 Series steels used in the originals. The heat treating makes them tougher, which is more important than harder.

I am aware of the history, the argument was over the MEU(SOC) order not butter soft slides of old.

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From what I could tell it seems The Man With No Name took that bit of history on multiple slides for each service gun from Tuner's post and believed that it still applied to the 1911's being produced today, hence the lack of understanding. As far as the MARSOC 1911's that Colt will be providing, I'm sure that there will be some extra slides included in the spare parts portion of the contract, but it's not because the guns will wear through them like the unhardened slides of old. Anything can and will break, and having spares on hand is never a bad idea.

As far as the MARSOC 1911's that Colt will be providing, I'm sure that there will be some extra slides included in the spare parts portion of the contract.

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You can bet that there will be. There will be extra slides and barrels and every other part needed to build up another gun on a used frame. All this is figured into the cost of the contract. The Marines aren't just getting the pistols. They're getting everything needed to keep them running for a long time, and if the spare parts inventory runs low, they'll buy more. I'd venture a guess that the spare parts and the gauges and specialty tools for the armorers probably cost as much as the pistols themselves.

It seems it's very common that if someone is reviewing a gun they like, that a high percentage of the time any malfunctions will be attributed to bad ammo, a bad magazine, limp wristing,etc. Now when they review a gun they don't like (a lot of 1911 haters out there) any malfunction is quickly judged to be a problem with the gun or it's design. Mark

It seems it's very common that if someone is reviewing a gun they like, that a high percentage of the time any malfunctions will be attributed to bad ammo, a bad magazine, limp wristing,etc.

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Well...When a feed issue is in the offing, most of the time it is the magazine, and that's the first thing that I look at whenever dealing with one...whether it's a 1911 or a Glock or a Raven.

The wheel is a lots older design , therefore it sucks more than my 1911's

I disagree with the author of the article:

The 1911 design, while 100 years old, is as modern as a rear wheel drive front engine passenger automobile. Think about it- are our cars hovering? Are they teleporting? Are they flying at light speed? No. They roll on four wheels. They burn gas. They steer with a wheel.

1911 magazines are reliable. I have never had any issues with quality standard magazines. I think the problem is the aftermarket for the 1911 brought done crappy magazines to ignorant customers, thereby compromising 1911's legend. How many aftermarket mags do you see for the Glock?

How many aftermarket Glock's are there? Do they run 100%? nope. Even Glock can't get it right when they deviate from the original design: Gen-4. Why is Apex designing a reliable extractor? Isn't the Glock perfect?

As far as being difficult to learn, the 1911 requires some ability to operate machinery. I requires the user to hold things with one hand while turning things with the other. It has a few more parts in it. And while I fully understand the effects of public school education, even the dumbest of the dumb can learn to fieldstrip a 1911. If not, that person is just too stupid to shoot and should look at edged weapons or blunt objects instead.

The 1911 is popular not because of propaganda, but due to the very design the author is besmetching. People like the design. People like how the 1911 feels in their hand. They like the way the trigger breaks. They like the Swiss Watch effect as opposed to the cordless drill feel of the Glock. They like the wood on steel. They like the infinite customization potential.

Is the Glock better than a Colt 1911? No. Is it better than a Springer? No. Is it better than a third world import? Yes.

High mag capacity isn't everything. Most people don't need or want 20 rounds in their pistol. If that were not the case, revolvers would have gone extinct in 1911.

It is a undeniable fact that Glock is one of the most sought after and successful pistols designs to have ever been thought up.

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I guess, but Gaston Glock didn't have to do a whole lotta thinkin' on it. John Browning and Dieudonne Saive took care of that part. All Gas had to do was work out the plastics end.

Dusty,

The thread isn't about Glocks, hating or liking them. It's about replying to misinformation in an article.

Glocks are solid and reliable firearms. Their revolutionary design and cost effective methods of production helped propel the industry forward. They inspired other excellent guns like the Springfield XD and the S&W M&P, arguably better guns. It's for this reason that many hold them up as an example of a modern gun that "is better" than the older 1911 design and as "proof" that the 1911 is obsolete. This leads to arguments that are sometimes pointless or can seem pointless.

We all know that Browning's real claim to fame was his high capacity double stack 9 mm Hi Power he worked on in Europe.

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I disagree with you here. Browning was famous before he worked on the 1911. He was known for his work on rifles, shotguns, and pistols all before the 1911. His designs powered Winchester and Colt forward. He had a working relationship with FN in Belgium that produced beautiful and internationally known handguns, so that in Europe and elsewhere his name was synonymous with semi-auto pistols before 1911. Browning's machine guns also won him renown. Some are still in use today. The bulk of the work on the Hi-Power was concluded by Saive years after Browning's death.

I personally would like to see what Gaston Glock and John Moses Browning could come up with in a collaborative effort.

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Interesting idea. I tend to think of Glock's abilities being more akin to Samuel Colt's, strong in marketing with good engineer's working with you.

tipoc

The African big game hunters of old gave accuracy only a passing interest.

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The hunters - as opposed to the Professional White Hunters, the guides - were all too often not good shots. The PWH needed a big powerful rifle because his client was very likely going to leave him wounded game to follow up, including wounded dangerous game.

Another one sprang to mind...from Jeff Cooper.

"This question on the utility of absolute accuracy in a fighting pistol is rather like discussing the top speed of a Ford pickup truck. Interesting, but irrelevant."

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On the other hand, Jeff Cooper also said "Since the dispersion of the weapon is added to that of the shooter, it can only be desired that the weapon have no dispersion at all."


I think the main problem with the perceived faults of guns erroneously called 1911s is that nearly all the highly touted advances in machine tools and metallurgy have gone into cutting costs by cutting corners and providing fashion driven "features" instead of true quality. Not to mention the knock off artists who think they know better than John Browning, Colt, and the Army and change actual design elements.

If you started running the guns through 100% inspection by hard-to-please inspectors not dependent on sales for their pay, kind of like the Army used to do, the complaints would fall off a lot.


My position on Glocks is that the Glock 17 is a fine service pistol because it was designed, built, and evaluated as a real service pistol. Its successors are merely reasonable commercial efforts, largely driven by the American market. They are usually ok but from what I have seen, not up to the base model in reliability or durability.

We all know that Browning's real claim to fame was his high capacity double stack 9 mm Hi Power he worked on in Europe.

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Really? ACP rounds, Macine guns like the BAR & Ma Duece! Semi auto shotguns. The list goes on and on.. Every gun you pick up has ideas from him..

I do believe ACP is a designation for (Auto Colt Pistol).

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Correct, but it JMB who designed them for the guns he was building for Colt.

I can disagree with this. Gaston fixed a great many Browning shortcomings such: as staked on parts,

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You're ignoring the part about Dieudonne Saive, you know, the guy who completed Browning's work on the GP-35 - aka the Browning Hi Power. The BHP doesn't have staked on parts.

two section feeding ramps,

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Gaston didn't do that, the BHP has a ramped bbl.

elimination of the link lug with a slotted sliding configuration to open and lower the breech,

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Also on the BHP, way before Gaston's time. It's also not a fundamental change, but rather a modification of Browning's tilt breech locking mechanism.

elimination of barrel lock up rings and lug and using the square block cut out on the slide to accomplish lock up.

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Again, it doesn't change the operation of the pistol. It just shifts the top lock up from multiple lugs forward of the front of bbl hood to the bbl hood itself. It's less expensive to manufacture that way, but it comes at the expense of a thicker and heavier slide. It's not an improvement at all. Glocks are just polymer frame BHPs with a 1903 Browning striker mechanism cobbled in, and the thumb safety deleted.

I'll add...

... elimination of barrel lock up rings and lug and using the square block cut out on the slide to accomplish lock up.

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Done earlier by Sig as I recall. The move in this direction can be seen in Charles Petter's designs and in the Radom Vis. This feature was not original to the Glock.

Original to the gun is the trigger, which is unique.

tipoc

I think there was a great deal of thinking put into the Glock pistol design.

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A good deal of thinking and studying did go into the design. A committee of experienced ordnance people and engineers pulled together by Gaston Glock spent time developing concepts for the gun. The result was a classic firearm, one of the most important of the last century.

...But that's just my opinion and I am one of those guys that think 1911's suck and are overpriced. I don't even like the looks of them to be honest. The Walther PP series are the prettiest guns I have ever seen in my day.

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I respect when a fella says up front what they think.

There is a book I'm reading right now which I recommend to all shooters, it's...

"Glock: The Rise of America's Gun" by Paul Barrett

a very good read and quite a useful book on the firearms industry in the U.S. and the development of the Glock.

I also like the looks of the Walther PP.

tipoc

If they suck so bad, how come every day more companys are springing up with new models. It's getting to the point that "BUDS" has a 1911 section now.

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Yeah that's why after reading the "1911 Sucks" article I posted it was the most outrageous crock of horse manure I've ever read.

101 years later you have companies like Smith & Wesson , Ruger , SIG , Dan Wesson and the current Remington making 1911s just to name a few. Try picking up a Ruger 1911 somewhere , I've yet to see one.

Pretty obvious that the 1911 design is doing quite well for itself. From reading here it seems most of the bashing comes from the Glock Boy crowd. You know , those same Internet Commandos that participate in weekly gun battles and shootouts or so it would seem. As if they are so highly qualified to tell us how great of a battle pistol the Glock is.

Judging by the Glock shooters I have seen at the range it is more likely that someone with a 1911 probably schooled them on the art of hitting your target. I've yet to see any of them "Glock is the Greatest" advocates that could shoot , the reason the high capacity is always stated as being so critical.

I also think Browning recognized the shortcomings of the 1911 patent and that is why the HP did not have those stupid staked on plunger tubes and was in double stack 9 mm instead of limited 11 mm (.45) the US Army wanted for killing horses.

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Oh, please. The mythical things that keep poppin' up...it's all I can do to keep up!

First off...Browning didn't have a lot to do with the High Power. He never even saw one. John Browning died in 1926 in the FN plant...and he was working on a stackbarrel shotgun at the time. He designed the Grande Rendement, which Dieudonne Saive used years later as a springboard to design the High Power, which was completed and introduced nearly nine years after Browning's death.

Second...There were no mistakes made with the 1911, nor with the High Power...and the High Power wasn't a doublestack 9mm because the .45 had limited capacity, and the .45 cartridge wasn't for killing horses, though that may have been considered.

Like any contract item, the paying customer gets a say in what features said item has. The US Army wanted .45 caliber because the mid-bore revolvers did so poorly against the Moros during the Philippine insurrection.

Because the thumb safety was added in the 11th hour on request by the US Cavalry, the staked-on plunger tube was the most expedient means to get one working in time to meet the deadline for the trials...and if it's properly staked, it won't loosen up readily...and even if it does, the proper grip panel design will hold it in place.

Also consider the fact that the plunger tube would be difficult, slow, and expensive to machine as part of the frame...and that if it had been, a damaged tube would be time-consuming to repair. It would require that the pistol be taken out of service...and that the necessary equipment to effect a repair would be both bulky and prohibitively expensive to maintain in a theater of operations. With the then 25 cent tube and a 2-dollar tool, the pistol could be returned to service in a matter of minutes...in the field. Ease of maintenance and repair in the field was one of the 1911's strong points.

There are reasons for everything on that pistol. Even the tiny pad on the thumb safety was made that way for a specific reason.

Third...The High Power being a contracted item, was also subject to customer specifications. The French wanted a high capacity 9mm pistol, and that's what they got. They wanted a magazine disconnect, and they got one. The didn't want a grip safety, so the pistol doesn't have one. If they had, the High Power would be wearing a grip safety today. Bet on it.

Neither John Browning nor Dieudonne Saive cobbled up their respective pistols and went looking for buyers. Both pistols were designed under contract by military entities. Saive was the chief designer at FN Herstal, and Browning worked under contract with Colt.

Following his tenure at Colt on the 1911, he went to work...under contract...at FN Herstal. Both pistols were assignments. Nothing more and nothing less.

Dusty, I wouldn't try to influence ya on your choice. Just tryin' to dispel with a few myths and set the record straight.

But...

I don't feel that the Glock has anything on a 1911 as far as reliability goes, as long as it
's built to spec and fed from proper magazines...and I'll stand by that until pigs fly.

I think anyone who has the opinion that any pistol design with both the extremely-long-duration combat and commercial success of the 1911 "sucks" has some serious rectal-cranial inversion, or at the least some serious ignorance.

I don't know where so many people get the idea that in order to like one brand/item/club/political party/etc, it means that they also must hate or disparage another. Unfortunately, for too many people, they need to do that in order to make themselves feel better about whatever camp they're in. I just don't understand it.

I have Glocks and Colts and Berettas and Stars and Smiths in my safe...all living together, in harmony, and all extremely well designed and built firearms. I don't have to spit on the 92FS in order to take the Colt out and shoot it.

Thank you ! ! !

Tuner, Those pigs stopped flying in 1944 at the Remington Rand Corporation as far as I am concerned.

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Don't bet on it. I've got a pair of early 1991A1 Colts that are collectively approaching 400,000 round, about evenly split. I don't remember the last malfunction I've had with either, but it's been years, and I can count the total number on my fingers without using my thumbs. No super-secret pistolsmith stuff has been done to either one. There hasn't been a Remington Rand made that would have stood up to that many rounds.

The 1970's Colts were a disaster

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No argument there. Those were what I refer to as Colt's dark days. They were having a lot of problems then in labor and management. You could get two with consecutive serial numbers and one would be fine, while the other one wasn't worth bringing home.

The present day 1911 is a mutation of a mutation and a pinochle of bad quality control and so wide in tolerances that Christopher Columbus may need to discover them again.

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Again, not a lot of room to argue. So many present-day clone makers are not only cutting corners, but they also seem to be making up specs as they go...but a good many also get things right.

If you'll remember my original statement:

"The 1911 was designed to function. If it's correctly built to spec and fed decent ammunition from a proper magazine, it will function. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice."

And that brings me back to the present crop. I haven't seen that many real problems, and in most of the ones that don't behave, it can be traced straight to the magazine. With most of the others, it's the extractor. A very small percentage require major surgery.

You can't really call a bad design for a corporate bean counter's decision to save 50 cents per magazine and order from the lowest bidder, and you can't really call it on an assembly worker's failure to properly adjust the extractor before sending it to the next station.

98% of the work that I do on the 1911 is addressing functional and reliability issues. It's not often that I need to do much more than hand the owner a good magazine or adjust the extractor. Some extractors require some modification...but that's the vendor's fault for not sticking to specs and QA's fault...both the vendor's and the manufacturer's...for not catching it.

It's usually somethin' simple, and I'm most often in and out of it in 30 minutes or less.

By and large, the biggest problem that I see is the hack that buys a Dremel and fancies himself a gunsmith. Whenever a call comes and I hear the words: "I jes' cain't unnerstan' it. I done me a killer ramp and throat job and the dang thang still won't feed!"
I just go ahead and load up on Excedrin Migraine an hour before he gets here.