Can mom have a gun if dad is a felon?

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Steel Talon said:
... As long as the firearms are not in his active control such as Hunting, shooting range, conceal carry, armed work position, gun smith, traveling in car etc. He is ok and your mother is ok....
The United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit apparently would not agree. On what do you base your statement? Do you have some legal authority to support your contention?

jim243 said:
First you need to check Texas law as to the mater. Generally your rights can be restored after 7 years with a clean record, but he will have to go to court to do so....
However, since the conviction was in California, the conviction would need to be expunged or otherwise dealt with under California law in some way that erased the disability.

jim243 said:
...As to your mother, untill your dad has his rights restored I would not advise her to purchase one. It might be seen as a straw purchase of a firearm and threated as another felony. This may or may not be the fact, but since your dad was denied a year ago, it would be hard to prove the intent of your mother's purchase since she has never purchased one in the past...
Not sure where you get that from. It might be an issue if the father's attempt to purchase a gun were yesterday, or even last week. But a delay of a year is a different matter.

In any case, the mother may certainly legally buy a gun for herself, for her use. But she would need to assure that the father doesn't have access to it. So when the gun is not on her person or under her immediate physical control it would need to be locked up, and the father could not have access to any key or combination.
 
This has been a informative thread but after reading The Circuit Court decision in Huet IMHO but it does not address the issue of a spouse or other family member that legally owns a gun and keeps it in the same home a relative that is felon resides in is a crime.

I noted previously that Huet's husband was arrested of other firearms related crimes. The Court states in it's decison "During their probe, FBI agents met Hall and Huet, who lived together. Over the next nine months, agents gathered evidence allegedly connecting Hall and Huet to various criminal activities. " If he was committing his activity in the home they shared in common (i.e. basement or garage) then a argument could be made that is wife knew of his activities. In this type of situation she was already aiding and abetting him. The Court certainly believed that Huet was involved in criminal activity iwth her husband. Hanging the firearm charge on her may be simplier to prove.

So far nothing has come to light where a felon or family member has been convicted for the mere presence of a legally owned firearm.

But in the interest of full disclosure I don't want to be a test case.:D
 
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I can't cite the specific case, but when they were covering the law in our Nevada concealed carry class, this question came up. The answer that the instructor gave was that the gun needed to be secured and that if it wasn't, it could be construed as constructive possession whenever the legal possessor was not in direct control. 10 years.

He cited a case where they were responding to the home of a couple pretty much exactly as you described where the husband was a prohibited person and the wife was not home. They checked registration records en route and found that the wife had a registered handgun. When they showed at the house and questioned the husband about the gun he said that it was locked in the safe. They asked him to open the safe to show them and when he did they arrested him for possession of a firearm by a prohibited person. 10 years. I'm sure that they would have arrested her as well but it would be impossible to prove that she directly provided him with the safe combo.
 
Why would it be a big felony? Nowhere in the law does it say that a person married to a felon is prohibited from owning/possessing a firearm.
__________________
I am not anti-cop. I am pro-Constitution.


As I said "CHECK WITH AN ATTORNEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" In Indiana if a felon has ACCESS to weapons, as he is in the same house, or car, he violates the terms of his parole.
 
AFAIK, there is currently no way gun rights can be restored for a felon. The GCA 68 provides for such restoral by the (then) Secretary of the Treasury, now the Attorney General, but for many years the anti gunners have succeeded in having that section of the law defunded so it is now a dead letter. The last "dangerous felon" who had his gun rights restored was Spiro Agnew, Nixon's first VP. When the liberals found out about it, they went absolutely insane and vowed that no one would ever use that "loophole" again, hence the defunding bill which is always passed, since it is small potatoes and no one wants to be accused of arming felons.

Jim
 
Is it 'once a felon, always a felon'? I thought if the record was expunged, the felony went away and rights were restored. That's the way it works for misdemeanor domestic violence.
 
BSA1 said:
This has been a inforamtive thread but after reading The Circuit Court decision in Huet IMHO but it does not address the issue of a spouse or other family member that legally owns a gun and keeps it in the same home a relative that is felon resides in is a crime.

I noted previously that Huet's husband was arrested of other firearms related crimes....
Apparently you didn't read the opinion in the case carefully enough to catch that Huet's cohabitant wasn't her husband. He was her boyfriend (United States v. Huet, 665 F.3d 588 (3rd Cir., 2012), at pg 592, emphasis added):
...a federal grand jury sitting in the Western District of Pennsylvania returned a three-count indictment against Huet and her paramour, Marvin Hall (“Hall”). ...Count Three (“Count Three” or “the Indictment”) charged Huet with knowingly aiding and abetting the possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1)...

You seem to have notable difficulty understanding Huet.

BSA1 said:
...The Court states in it's decison "During their probe, FBI agents met Hall and Huet, who lived together. Over the next nine months, agents gathered evidence allegedly connecting Hall and Huet to various criminal activities. " If he was committing his activity in the home they shared in common (i.e. basement or garage) then a argument could be made that is wife knew of his activities. In this type of situation she was already aiding and abetting him. The Court certainly believed that Huet was involved in criminal activity iwth her husband....
What a load of hogwash!

[1] Huet was not Hall's wife.

[2] The other criminal activity was irrelevant to the indictment at issue in the case. That might help explain why the FBI was investigating Huet and Hall and ultimately uncovered the evidence used to indict both Huet and Hall, but Huet was indicted simply for aiding and abetting a felon's possession of a gun.

[3] And of course Huet knew of Hall's past criminal activities. So what? In the OP's question, the OP's mother knows his father is a convicted felon.

BSA1 said:
...So far nothing has come to light where a felon or family member has been convicted for the mere presence of a legally owned firearm....
Huet's indictment was based on a search of the home she shared with Hall. As noted in Huet, at pp 592-593):
...on June 6, 2008, a valid search warrant (the “search warrant”) was executed on the couple's Clarion County home. Agents...seized an SKS, Interordinance M59/66 rifle (“SKS rifle”) from an upstairs bedroom...
the court further noted, at 593:
...Although Huet is legally permitted to possess a firearm, Hall was convicted in 1999 of possessing an unregistered firearm, ... and is therefore prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm. ... Huet allegedly told investigators that the guns in the house belonged to her and that it was not illegal for her to purchase weapons. Despite Huet's assertions that she alone possessed the SKS rifle, the Government sought and obtained an indictment charging Hall with illegal possession of the weapon, and Huet with aiding and abetting Hall's possession...
So it appears that the foundation of the indictment of Huet was her keeping her lawfully owned gun in a manner that allowed Hall, a prohibited person, access to it.

Jim K said:
AFAIK, there is currently no way gun rights can be restored for a felon. The GCA 68 provides for such restoral by the (then) Secretary of the Treasury, now the Attorney General, but for many years the anti gunners have succeeded in having that section of the law defunded so it is now a dead letter....
I agree that things are pretty bleak if one's disability is as a result of a conviction of a federal felony. Things aren't quite so bad if one's disability is based on conviction of a state felony.

The exact disabling condition is (18 USC 922(g)(1)):
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—

(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;...​
...

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

The ATF regulation define "Crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year." as follows (27 CFR 478.11, emphasis added):
Crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year. Any Federal, State or foreign offense for which the maximum penalty, whether or not imposed, is capital punishment or imprisonment in excess of 1 year. The term shall not include (a) any Federal or State offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or other similar offenses relating to the regulation of business practices or (b) any State offense classified by the laws of the State as a misdemeanor and punishable by a term of imprisonment of 2 years or less. What constitutes a conviction of such a crime shall be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction in which the proceedings were held. Any conviction which has been expunged or set aside or for which a person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored shall not be considered a conviction for the purposes of the Act or this part, unless such pardon, expunction, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms, or unless the person is prohibited by the law of the jurisdiction in which the proceedings were held from receiving or possessing any firearms.

So if someone has a disabling state conviction but gets it set aside under state law, he will no longer be a prohibited person under GCA68.
 
My husband is from Cali and due to some trouble he had over ten years ago he cannot buy a gun here in Kansas. However, I can but I do have to ensure they he does not have access to them at anytime or it can lead to charges against me. This was explained to me earlier this year by the local DA and confirmed also by our lawyer. It's all stupid since there was no violence involved in Cali.
 
1 old 0311-1 said:
Why would it be a big felony? Nowhere in the law does it say that a person married to a felon is prohibited from owning/possessing a firearm.
The spouse of a felon can own/posess a firearm.

The spouse of a felon cannot knowingly allow the felon to own/posess a firearm.

Possession and ownership are not the same. "Constructive possession" is a BS idea, but that doesn't negate the fact they can use it to make a charge.
 
...Possession and ownership are not the same. "Constructive possession" is a BS idea, but that doesn't negate the fact they can use it to make a charge.
You might consider constructive possession to be BS, but it is a well established concept in the law and applies in many ways under many circumstances. It is most definitely not BS to a judge. One is well advised to take it seriously.
 
Whatever,

I know that the question wasn't about getting your dad's rights restored, but last year my wife(a lawyer) worked at veterans stand down where she helped people in your dads situation get their rights restored for free. You should do a little research and see if the is a similar program where your dad lives those types of programs for vets are very common these days.
 
I did not mean to suggest it was not a legally valid concept, or does not apply It is, and it does.
I happen to think it should not be, but it is worth noting, the value of my opinion as legal precedent is precisely zero.
 
It is most definitely not BS to a judge. One is well advised to take it seriously.

Our laws are so complex it's impossible to take them seriously. I listen in on these legal discussions and shake my head.

If an engineer twisted the laws of physics the way lawyers and judges do he'd be dead and probably take a lot of people with him.

If I fail to insulate a power line adequately, but it's "constructively" insulated because someone with access to insulation lives at that address will no one die in the fire that results?

Asking for legal advise on an internet forum is "constructive" negligence.

If it can result in jail time it is worth consorting with a competent lawyer, preferably one in private practice with good malpractice insurance.

Just realize that "case law" is a living entity. No one legislates it, it just happens spontaneously at the higher courts at the whim of people who wear black capes to work. ????? I know it's tradition, but it really boggles the mind we allow this stuff.
 
Originally Posted by Steel Talon. As I believe.... As long as the firearms are not in his active control such as Hunting, shooting range, conceal carry, armed work position, gun smith, traveling in car etc. He is ok and your mother is ok....But since this is the internet call a legal service for a definitive answer.

Posted by Frank Ettin
The United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit apparently would not agree. On what do you base your statement? Do you have some legal authority to support your contention?

Counselor, I'll defer to your prudence and expertice on the subject.
 
Jim K - i can assure you with absolute certainty that it can be done. rights restored, carry permit issued, and ffl in pocket.
 
Florida, felons, and firearms

Felons frequently live with non prohibited relatives and unwittingly get busted.

Two condensed version real examples -

1. Convicted felon husband calls LEO to report theft of tools from garage. Non prohibited wife with Florida Concealed Weapon or Firearm License has her purse on the coffee table, butt of revolver visable. Husband arrested.

2. Convicted felon passenger in vehicle of non prohibited brother who is stopped for a traffic violation. Trooper notices loose ammo in console area cup holder. (No guns in vehicle). Passenger arrested.

Morale: If the guns and ammo are not in the actual possession of the non prohibited person, lock them up and do not permit the felon access to the key or combination. Felons and associates should treat guns and ammo the way they would a coiled diamondback rattlensake. It is easy to get closer to striking distance than it would first appear.

Study your respective state laws closely. Many will contain significant little details. Florida Statue provided below,( italics mine) :

790.23 Felons and delinquents; possession of firearms, ammunition, or electric weapons or devices unlawful.—
(1) It is unlawful for any person to own or to have in his or her care, custody, possession, or control any firearm, ammunition, or electric weapon or device, or to carry a concealed weapon, including a tear gas gun or chemical weapon or device, if that person has been:
(a) Convicted of a felony in the courts of this state;

(b) Found, in the courts of this state, to have committed a delinquent act that would be a felony if committed by an adult and such person is under 24 years of age;

(c) Convicted of or found to have committed a crime against the United States which is designated as a felony;

(d) Found to have committed a delinquent act in another state, territory, or country that would be a felony if committed by an adult and which was punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year and such person is under 24 years of age; or

(e) Found guilty of an offense that is a felony in another state, territory, or country and which was punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.

(2) This section shall not apply to a person convicted of a felony whose civil rights and firearm authority have been restored.

(3) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (4), any person who violates this section commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s.
 
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Jim K - i can assure you with absolute certainty that it can be done. rights restored, carry permit issued, and ffl in pocket.
I think Jim K is referring to those convicted of a FEDERAL felony. There presently is only one way to have firearms possession rights restored for one of those; presidential pardon.
 
application of this logic

Is there a a strong possbility that the application of this gun 'logic' can be applied outside the gun realm:


Hypothetical marked with **

I have prescription Hydrcordone, max dosage and I keep it on me or in plain sight on the dash of my Jeep Rubicon.

**Wife, in her early 20's convicted of felony drug use**.

We are stopped at a drunk drivers check point.

Is she a felon in possesion of drugs?
 
Mike Sr. said:
Is there a a strong possbility that the application of this gun 'logic' can be applied outside the gun realm:...
The short answer is "no." There may be different state or federal statutes involved as well as case law interpreting and applying those statutes. There is no substitute for doing proper legal research on the exact question.

In your hypothetical, you might or might not have problems. There's no way to know without doing the research. I'm not going to do the research, and the issue is off topic for this board.
 
Thank you Counselor for poinitng out my mistake about Hall and Huet having a common-law marriage. I miised where the Court said "On June 5, 2008, a federal grand jury sitting in the Western District of Pennsylvania returned a three-count indictment against Huet and her paramour, Marvin Hall ("Hall")."

Since Paramour is defined as a "an illicit lover, especially of a married person" Since Huet was married to someone else Hall could not claim there was a legal relationship either as a common-law spouse or family member.

I disagree with your argument that since the Court said;

"Although Huet is legally permitted to possess a firearm, Hall was convicted in 1999 of possessing an unregistered firearm, ... and is therefore prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm. ... Huet allegedly told investigators that the guns in the house belonged to her and that it was not illegal for her to purchase weapons. Despite Huet's assertions that she alone possessed the SKS rifle, the Government sought and obtained an indictment charging Hall with illegal possession of the weapon, and Huet with aiding and abetting Hall's possession... "

So it appears that the foundation of the indictment of Huet was her keeping her lawfully owned gun in a manner that allowed Hall, a prohibited person, access to it.

The Court also said;

"The allegations in the Indictment stem from an undercover FBI investigation into the activities of Morgan Jones ("Jones") in Clarion County, Pennsylvania. The investigation focused on attempts to purchase illegal firearms and explosive devices for criminal activities, as well as the potential manufacturing and detonation of explosive devices. During their probe, FBI agents met Hall and Huet, who lived together. Over the next nine months, agents gathered evidence allegedly connecting Hall and Huet to various criminal activities,..."

Clearly the Court considered the fact that Huet and Hall were not married and were engaged in criminal activity together important.

Please allow me to expand my statement that nothing has come to light where in the absence of any other illegal, illict or criminal activity a felon or family member has been convicted for the mere presence of a legally owned firearm.
 
BSA1 said:
Thank you Counselor for poinitng out my mistake about Hall and Huet having a common-law marriage....
And where did you conclude that Hall and Huet had a common law marriage? You merely called them husband and wife.

BSA1 said:
...Since Paramour is defined as a "an illicit lover, especially of a married person" Since Huet was married to someone else Hall could not claim there was a legal relationship either as a common-law spouse or family member...
Do you have a single piece of evidence to now support your assertion that Hall was married to someone? How would that be relevant? The word "paramour" is defined in Merriam-Webster on-line merely as "illicit lover." The court most likely merely choice that word in lieu of alternates such as "lover", "co-habitat", "boy-friend", etc.

BSA1 said:
...Clearly the Court considered the fact that Huet and Hall were not married and were engaged in criminal activity together important...
Exactly how? In the snippet of the opinion you quote, the court is merely describing the basis upon which the FBI obtained a warrant to search the home the Hall and Huet shared. That sort of "setting the scene" is not uncommon in judicial opinions.

You only quoted a portion of the court's statement, i. e. (Huet, at pg 592):
...Over the next nine months, agents gathered evidence allegedly connecting Hall and Huet to various criminal activities,...
The complete sentence from the court's opinion is (Huet, at 592):
...Over the next nine months, agents gathered evidence allegedly connecting Hall and Huet to various criminal activities, and on June 6, 2008, a valid search warrant (the “search warrant”) was executed on the couple's Clarion County home....
Evidence allegedly connecting Hall and Huet to criminal activities was the basis for the validity of the warrant.

Of course it was material that Huet and Hall lived together. That's how Huet was able to aid and abetting Hall's unlawful possession of a gun -- by allowing her co-habitat access to the gun she legally possessed.

BSA1 said:
...Please allow me to expand my statement...
Expand your statement however you wish, it still doesn't make your view any more valid. You clearly can not understand this case.

In post 16 you wrote:
BSA1 said:
...If I understand this correctly Huet was not guilty of aiding and abetting a felon...
And I pointed out how and why you were completely wrong about that.

Then in post 18 you wrote:
...Circuit Court reinstated and the case was remanded for a new trial...
And I had to point out why that was an inaccurate statement.

And somehow you managed to marry Hall to Huet.

Given the fundamental procedural misunderstanding of the case and the lack of attention you detail, I don't know anyone should take your views on the case seriously.
 
Short answer: yes, she can own a gun.

Longer answer: she can own a gun, but he must not be allowed access to the firearm or ammunition at any time.

This.

A recently returned gentleman of the projects took it upon himself to physically express his dissatisfaction with a "lady" who yelled at his offspring to restrain their joyous exclamations. Why couldn't children play quietly in a playground? After all, what civilised person wants to remain awake at 10 a.m. in the morning? The sight of his fist in her face was the last thing she remembered. When she awoke from her unintended nap, at least not the type of nap she sought, she found her palatial estate had been rendered asunder with items broken, knocked over and askew. Oh, the harmony and happiness of her home had been rudely disrupted.

She expressed her dissatisfaction with the situation which I recorded it for the magistrate. He was quickly identified because of his unique scar and the kind magistrate issued him an invitation for a meeting. Forthwith a carriage was dispatched and the coachmen located the fellow. A search ensued after he was placed in a black and while coloured public carriage and lo! the dutiful coachman and driver found a loaded gun -- something prohibited for a felon.

Having violated his parole to conduct himself in a manner befitting a gentleman, the "gentleman" was returned to his quarters at San Quentin, where others of his kind were guests of the state. As for the pistol, since his bedmate, who had not been convicted of a felony (yet), asserted that it was hers, he was not charged for its possession.

BTW, California state law only allows felons possession (not title) of a firearm for self-defense at the moment the self-defense need arises. Once that moment passes, the felon must rid himself of said firearm.
 
Frank,

I had a long, thoughful reply to your questions in which I had references and what I considered to be effective counter-arguments.

Then the computer I am using (I am currently out-of-state) disconnected me from THR. Clearly the computer did not agree with my position and decided to spare me any further embarassment.

Seeing how we have to get on the road in a few minutes I will simply thank you for your opinion.
 
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