Sean Smith
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- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
So the ETA attempted to plant 2 bombs on trains and botched it. Whoever did this attack planted 13 bombs on trains and 10 blew up. Quite a difference in demonstrated capability.
130 plus killed in four bombings in Madrid
- Thread starter agricola
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Mike Irwin
Member
Agricola,
Ah, yes, a 25kg bomb is certainly EXACTLY the same as 10 44kg bombs on 4 separate trains and what, 2 train stations (I'm getting confused reports on the exactly number of trains and stations).
Shows the same tactics, same level of planning, same level of coordination, same level of communication, etc. I'm thinking that it even shows that ETA is using cloning techniques to recreate themselves so that they can pass their knowledge along.
I guess also, by virtue of the fact that a it was a bomb and a train means that ETA is actually responsible for carrying out every bombing incident in Europe since 1959, including those attributed to the IRA?
Who'da thunk it?
Wow, maybe ETA even bombed the Murragh building in Oklahoma City?
It's also funny that a number of international terrorism experts who have been interviewed for a number of news sources also feel that this attack is not typical of an ETA attack. But, then again, what do they know?
Let's take a look at the clues and precedents:
1. Similar material to other ETA attacks. Not conclusive. Roughly 4 types of plastic explosive (if this was plastic explosive) have been used in nearly 90% of all bombs of that type over the last 10 years. Those explosives are readily available in massive quantities virtually anywhere in the world to anyone with the cash.
2. Not suicide bombings, but used remote control devices. Not conclusive. There have been many car bombs detonated in the Arab world, particularly in Israel, that have not been suicide bombings. More than a few have used remote detonation devices designed. As I noted, the first attack on the World Trade Center was NOT a suicide attack, yet it was carried out by Islamic fundamentalists.
3. ETA has tried to blow up trains before. Not conclusive. ETA isn't the only group that has tried, and suceeded, in detonating bombs on trains before.
But tell me, Agricola, given the massive confusion that's still surrounding this event and the lack of cohesive information that's come out of the Spanish investigators to this point, on what basis do you OR the Spanish claim that this wasn't a suicide bombing attack?
The fact that no one saw anyone wearing a towel on their head, running through the train ululating about Allah before disappearing in a blinding flash?
And, given that Arab extremists have shown that they're willing NOT to die for their God when setting bombs, what would make you automatically rule out Islamacists?
Seems like your operating on some kind of... ignorance here.
OK, I have personal reasons to take a deep interest in ETA, and have studied all that I can find about them for the past several years. Does that make me an expert on them and their operations? No, no one is truly an expert on how ETA operates, because no one has ever gotten inside their organization.
But I also think I have a pretty good feel for ETA and its campaign of violence, and the actions that they've taken.
All the while that you've been putting words in my mouth and acribing to me feelings about ETA that I've never had nor exhibited, you're missing the salient point -- that this entire scenario to this point hasn't followed ETA's established patterns and practices that they've used for 40 years.
There are three possible explanations for that.
1. It's a new cadre of people at the head of ETA who have expanded the organization. Seems unlikely.
2. It's a group that wants to pin blame on ETA. Again, seems unlikely.
3. It wasn't ETA.
To me, the answer is obvious. This was not an ETA act.
It's now what, nearly 36 hours after the bombings, and still no ETA claim of responsibility. In fact, no other group around the world has claimed responsibility for this action, other than guess who?
Now, we DO have this comment from the BBC's article, something that I've been saying...
"If Eta was responsible, analysts say, the simultaneous attacks mark an unprecedented increase in scale, ruthlessness and co-ordination.
Yep, scale and coordination is different from other ETA attacks in the past. Gee, isn't that what I originally said that made you come down on me like a ton of stale scones, accusing me of being dismissive of ETA and its capabilities?
Let's see... Here's the line from my first message on this...
"Also, if all of what we're seeing about this (10 backpack bombs exploding simultaneously) it's too large and well organized for ETA."
Large... Hum, could that be scale?
And well organized... That certainly smacks of co-ordination.
And the BBC article also had this to say...
"And intelligence analyst Glenmore Trenear-Harvey, interviewed by BBC News 24, said the group would have found it difficult to stage such a co-ordinated effort, given the level of surveillance to which the remaining Eta members are subjected by the Spanish intelligence service."
With a name like that, that gentleman HAS to be British. You've got some phone calls to make, it looks like. You need to soundly castigate this man for even thinking for a moment that ETA couldn't throw off the oppressive shackles of Spanish dominion to lash out decisively in their quest for a home land.
Looks like you should be coming down on the BBC, lad. They've just called the ETA jokes! Get to it!
Ah, yes, a 25kg bomb is certainly EXACTLY the same as 10 44kg bombs on 4 separate trains and what, 2 train stations (I'm getting confused reports on the exactly number of trains and stations).
Shows the same tactics, same level of planning, same level of coordination, same level of communication, etc. I'm thinking that it even shows that ETA is using cloning techniques to recreate themselves so that they can pass their knowledge along.
I guess also, by virtue of the fact that a it was a bomb and a train means that ETA is actually responsible for carrying out every bombing incident in Europe since 1959, including those attributed to the IRA?
Who'da thunk it?
Wow, maybe ETA even bombed the Murragh building in Oklahoma City?
It's also funny that a number of international terrorism experts who have been interviewed for a number of news sources also feel that this attack is not typical of an ETA attack. But, then again, what do they know?
Let's take a look at the clues and precedents:
1. Similar material to other ETA attacks. Not conclusive. Roughly 4 types of plastic explosive (if this was plastic explosive) have been used in nearly 90% of all bombs of that type over the last 10 years. Those explosives are readily available in massive quantities virtually anywhere in the world to anyone with the cash.
2. Not suicide bombings, but used remote control devices. Not conclusive. There have been many car bombs detonated in the Arab world, particularly in Israel, that have not been suicide bombings. More than a few have used remote detonation devices designed. As I noted, the first attack on the World Trade Center was NOT a suicide attack, yet it was carried out by Islamic fundamentalists.
3. ETA has tried to blow up trains before. Not conclusive. ETA isn't the only group that has tried, and suceeded, in detonating bombs on trains before.
But tell me, Agricola, given the massive confusion that's still surrounding this event and the lack of cohesive information that's come out of the Spanish investigators to this point, on what basis do you OR the Spanish claim that this wasn't a suicide bombing attack?
The fact that no one saw anyone wearing a towel on their head, running through the train ululating about Allah before disappearing in a blinding flash?
And, given that Arab extremists have shown that they're willing NOT to die for their God when setting bombs, what would make you automatically rule out Islamacists?
Seems like your operating on some kind of... ignorance here.
OK, I have personal reasons to take a deep interest in ETA, and have studied all that I can find about them for the past several years. Does that make me an expert on them and their operations? No, no one is truly an expert on how ETA operates, because no one has ever gotten inside their organization.
But I also think I have a pretty good feel for ETA and its campaign of violence, and the actions that they've taken.
All the while that you've been putting words in my mouth and acribing to me feelings about ETA that I've never had nor exhibited, you're missing the salient point -- that this entire scenario to this point hasn't followed ETA's established patterns and practices that they've used for 40 years.
There are three possible explanations for that.
1. It's a new cadre of people at the head of ETA who have expanded the organization. Seems unlikely.
2. It's a group that wants to pin blame on ETA. Again, seems unlikely.
3. It wasn't ETA.
To me, the answer is obvious. This was not an ETA act.
It's now what, nearly 36 hours after the bombings, and still no ETA claim of responsibility. In fact, no other group around the world has claimed responsibility for this action, other than guess who?
Now, we DO have this comment from the BBC's article, something that I've been saying...
"If Eta was responsible, analysts say, the simultaneous attacks mark an unprecedented increase in scale, ruthlessness and co-ordination.
Yep, scale and coordination is different from other ETA attacks in the past. Gee, isn't that what I originally said that made you come down on me like a ton of stale scones, accusing me of being dismissive of ETA and its capabilities?
Let's see... Here's the line from my first message on this...
"Also, if all of what we're seeing about this (10 backpack bombs exploding simultaneously) it's too large and well organized for ETA."
Large... Hum, could that be scale?
And well organized... That certainly smacks of co-ordination.
And the BBC article also had this to say...
"And intelligence analyst Glenmore Trenear-Harvey, interviewed by BBC News 24, said the group would have found it difficult to stage such a co-ordinated effort, given the level of surveillance to which the remaining Eta members are subjected by the Spanish intelligence service."
With a name like that, that gentleman HAS to be British. You've got some phone calls to make, it looks like. You need to soundly castigate this man for even thinking for a moment that ETA couldn't throw off the oppressive shackles of Spanish dominion to lash out decisively in their quest for a home land.
Looks like you should be coming down on the BBC, lad. They've just called the ETA jokes! Get to it!
agricola
Member
mike,
I dont know why you are acting this way, but the two bombs then were not 250kg - they were 25kg (50lb) which puts them very close to the size of the bombs recovered from the other trains that failed to explode. That attack is known to have been down to ETA. Three months later, the same explosive (according to here) is used to attack the same type of target in the same type of way as used beforehand, albeit on a bigger scale.
However, as I have pointed out before, this increased scale is explainable because it appears most if not all the trains were on the same line and the responsible cell would just have to wait at the station and drop off the bombs as the trains stopped.
Secondly, I have been trying to show that ETA are more than capable of this level of sophistication and timing, and their recent attacks - the two bombs on the train were set to go off on Christmas Eve, and the truck bomb was on its way to Madrid - have shown an increased desire to achieve civilian casualties. Since 1988 ETA have carried out many attacks and have more than demonstrated that they are capable of this level of attack:
http://www.ict.org.il/organizations/orgattack.cfm?orgid=8
Thirdly, al-Qaeda have NOT claimed responsibility for this, another group, which has also claimed other attacks that turned out to be not its doing, has in an email to an arabic newspaper in London.
Of course, it could be the GIA or any other Islamic group; but there is a large amount of evidence at the moment that points at it being the responsibility of ETA.
I dont know why you are acting this way, but the two bombs then were not 250kg - they were 25kg (50lb) which puts them very close to the size of the bombs recovered from the other trains that failed to explode. That attack is known to have been down to ETA. Three months later, the same explosive (according to here) is used to attack the same type of target in the same type of way as used beforehand, albeit on a bigger scale.
However, as I have pointed out before, this increased scale is explainable because it appears most if not all the trains were on the same line and the responsible cell would just have to wait at the station and drop off the bombs as the trains stopped.
Secondly, I have been trying to show that ETA are more than capable of this level of sophistication and timing, and their recent attacks - the two bombs on the train were set to go off on Christmas Eve, and the truck bomb was on its way to Madrid - have shown an increased desire to achieve civilian casualties. Since 1988 ETA have carried out many attacks and have more than demonstrated that they are capable of this level of attack:
http://www.ict.org.il/organizations/orgattack.cfm?orgid=8
Thirdly, al-Qaeda have NOT claimed responsibility for this, another group, which has also claimed other attacks that turned out to be not its doing, has in an email to an arabic newspaper in London.
Of course, it could be the GIA or any other Islamic group; but there is a large amount of evidence at the moment that points at it being the responsibility of ETA.
Mike Irwin
Member
Damn, Agricola...
Tell me, did you even BOTHER to read the WHOLE article that you linked from BBC?
Especially this little bit?
"Evidence for al-Qaeda's responsibility includes:
the choosing of multiple targets in a simultaneous co-ordinated attack is a hallmark of the Islamic militant group
al-Qaeda has threatened revenge on Spain for its government's backing of the US-led invasion and occupation of Iraq
the scale of the devastation dwarfs anything that Eta has done in the past and is much more like an al-Qaeda operation
Spanish police later found a stolen van containing an Islamic tape and seven detonators in the town of Alcala de Henares, where three of the four bombed trains originated
a group called the Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades has made a claim of responsibility on behalf of al-Qaeda, but it has been widely dismissed.
George Joffe, of the Centre for International Studies at Cambridge University, said on the BBC World Service's World Today programme that he had initially believed Eta was responsible, but was now having second thoughts.
"It may yet be that this is part of a much wider conspiracy, and it's certainly true that Spain has in recent weeks arrested large numbers of North Africans, accusing them of being connected with al-Qaeda," he said."
Tell me, did you even BOTHER to read the WHOLE article that you linked from BBC?
Especially this little bit?
"Evidence for al-Qaeda's responsibility includes:
the choosing of multiple targets in a simultaneous co-ordinated attack is a hallmark of the Islamic militant group
al-Qaeda has threatened revenge on Spain for its government's backing of the US-led invasion and occupation of Iraq
the scale of the devastation dwarfs anything that Eta has done in the past and is much more like an al-Qaeda operation
Spanish police later found a stolen van containing an Islamic tape and seven detonators in the town of Alcala de Henares, where three of the four bombed trains originated
a group called the Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades has made a claim of responsibility on behalf of al-Qaeda, but it has been widely dismissed.
George Joffe, of the Centre for International Studies at Cambridge University, said on the BBC World Service's World Today programme that he had initially believed Eta was responsible, but was now having second thoughts.
"It may yet be that this is part of a much wider conspiracy, and it's certainly true that Spain has in recent weeks arrested large numbers of North Africans, accusing them of being connected with al-Qaeda," he said."
agricola
Member
nice edit btw
Mike Irwin
Member
Agricola,
Go back, I corrected my typo. I know it wasn't a 250 kg. bomb, it was a 25kg bomb. As I've said before, I type 102 words a minute. Errors creep in.
Yes, that attack is known to have been an ETA one. So that automatically makes ALL bombings on trains the work of ETA, right?
That's the logic you're using.
Frankly, I get more than just a little pissed off when someone accuses me of saying things I didn't say when it's CLEAR that I didn't say them.
Without reason or worse, WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE, you jumped to conclusions and tried to categorize my beliefs about ETA based on what you wanted to see, not what was presented.
I also can't figure out why you're apparently so desparate to want this to be an ETA action.
In the past, ETA has largely NOT been capable of this type of sophistication and timing.
Again, Mr. Trenear-Harvey:
"And intelligence analyst Glenmore Trenear-Harvey, interviewed by BBC News 24, said the group would have found it difficult to stage such a co-ordinated effort, given the level of surveillance to which the remaining Eta members are subjected by the Spanish intelligence service.
"To organise something with this number of bombs requires an amazing amount of legwork beforehand," he said."
ETA has NEVER carried out an attack that even remotely approaches this level of sophistication. They have carried out a number of sophisticated single bomb events, but nothing like this, so to put it mildly, your attempts to "prove" that ETA is capable of this type of attack don't really ring true based on their previous actions.
If this was, however, an ETA attack (which I fully doubt), it will mark a new and very troubling time for Spain.
Go back, I corrected my typo. I know it wasn't a 250 kg. bomb, it was a 25kg bomb. As I've said before, I type 102 words a minute. Errors creep in.
Yes, that attack is known to have been an ETA one. So that automatically makes ALL bombings on trains the work of ETA, right?
That's the logic you're using.
Frankly, I get more than just a little pissed off when someone accuses me of saying things I didn't say when it's CLEAR that I didn't say them.
Without reason or worse, WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE, you jumped to conclusions and tried to categorize my beliefs about ETA based on what you wanted to see, not what was presented.
I also can't figure out why you're apparently so desparate to want this to be an ETA action.
In the past, ETA has largely NOT been capable of this type of sophistication and timing.
Again, Mr. Trenear-Harvey:
"And intelligence analyst Glenmore Trenear-Harvey, interviewed by BBC News 24, said the group would have found it difficult to stage such a co-ordinated effort, given the level of surveillance to which the remaining Eta members are subjected by the Spanish intelligence service.
"To organise something with this number of bombs requires an amazing amount of legwork beforehand," he said."
ETA has NEVER carried out an attack that even remotely approaches this level of sophistication. They have carried out a number of sophisticated single bomb events, but nothing like this, so to put it mildly, your attempts to "prove" that ETA is capable of this type of attack don't really ring true based on their previous actions.
If this was, however, an ETA attack (which I fully doubt), it will mark a new and very troubling time for Spain.
agricola
Member
Mike,
I dunno what you are on, but please calm down. You seem to ignore any evidence - including fully half of that BBC article that suggests ETA is responsible, instead it MUST BE AL-QAEDA because ONLY AL-QAEDA does nasty things.
Please, open your eyes and understand that not everything bad is the result of AL-QAEDA.
I dunno what you are on, but please calm down. You seem to ignore any evidence - including fully half of that BBC article that suggests ETA is responsible, instead it MUST BE AL-QAEDA because ONLY AL-QAEDA does nasty things.
Please, open your eyes and understand that not everything bad is the result of AL-QAEDA.
agricola
Member
Mike,
That was the implication of what you said - that ETA were incapable of doing this. The evidence shows that they are capable of doing this, and that all that is required is the will. It now appears that they have the will to do this.
It seems that its you who is desperate to pin this on al-Qaeda.
That was the implication of what you said - that ETA were incapable of doing this. The evidence shows that they are capable of doing this, and that all that is required is the will. It now appears that they have the will to do this.
It seems that its you who is desperate to pin this on al-Qaeda.
Mike Irwin
Member
OK, I ignored one half of the BBC article, and you ignored the other half, Agricola.
Yet once again, you're attempting to make a temporal leap, that coordinating the delivery of two bombs is as simple as coordinating the delivery of 10, or the delivery of a truck bomb.
Please. I'm all ears. Let us know why that's the case?
If it's so easy, let us know why ETA hasn't carried out many more multiple bomb attacks. Why only 10? If ETA is so functionally cohesive, so masterfully capable, so ably led, so highly organized, why not 100 bombs? Why not 1,000 bombs?
And I'm still waiting for an explanation from you as to why lack of scattered Arab means that this is 100% NOT an Islamic-backed attack?
And the "implication of what I said," Agricola?
That implication is what international terrorism experts have been saying about ETA for years. And yet, you're such the expert on terrorist groups that you have other knowledge, how?
Yet once again, you're attempting to make a temporal leap, that coordinating the delivery of two bombs is as simple as coordinating the delivery of 10, or the delivery of a truck bomb.
Please. I'm all ears. Let us know why that's the case?
If it's so easy, let us know why ETA hasn't carried out many more multiple bomb attacks. Why only 10? If ETA is so functionally cohesive, so masterfully capable, so ably led, so highly organized, why not 100 bombs? Why not 1,000 bombs?
And I'm still waiting for an explanation from you as to why lack of scattered Arab means that this is 100% NOT an Islamic-backed attack?
And the "implication of what I said," Agricola?
That implication is what international terrorism experts have been saying about ETA for years. And yet, you're such the expert on terrorist groups that you have other knowledge, how?
agricola
Member
Mike,
No - I have at least twice said that it could be the work of other groups, but the evidence that is available now suggests that it is more likely the work of ETA, or a splinter of that group. Nor did I ignore the BBC half of the article, for reasons already stated most of those claims dont stand up.
The leap in capability between targetted attacks and indescriminate attacks of this kind is not as high as one would imagine - frequently one person is able to cause carnage (the Atlanta bomber, David Copeland etc), and to drop more than ten bombs on several trains that use the same line is not beyond the reach of a terrorist group in ETA's league. Certainly, if it wanted to PIRA could do an attack of this kind (even now, but certainly when there were several ASU on the mainland in the 1980s as they showed at Hyde Park).
What is required is the will, and for someone to come up with the idea.
Also, its a fallacious argument to claim that "international terrorism experts" were ever saying that ETA wasnt capable of this level of attack - they havent been saying that at all (what they were saying is that arrests have reduced the groups numbers and that this was the lowest number of deaths year since the groups inception (though again, if they were focusing on this attack then that is understandable)).
I raised the point about suicide bombers because, in more of its attacks than not, the suicide bomber has been the preferred mode of attack, and if this was an al-Qaeda attack (which are known for their symbolism) then one would have expected a suicide bomber to have been used, if for no other reason than its impact.
No - I have at least twice said that it could be the work of other groups, but the evidence that is available now suggests that it is more likely the work of ETA, or a splinter of that group. Nor did I ignore the BBC half of the article, for reasons already stated most of those claims dont stand up.
The leap in capability between targetted attacks and indescriminate attacks of this kind is not as high as one would imagine - frequently one person is able to cause carnage (the Atlanta bomber, David Copeland etc), and to drop more than ten bombs on several trains that use the same line is not beyond the reach of a terrorist group in ETA's league. Certainly, if it wanted to PIRA could do an attack of this kind (even now, but certainly when there were several ASU on the mainland in the 1980s as they showed at Hyde Park).
What is required is the will, and for someone to come up with the idea.
Also, its a fallacious argument to claim that "international terrorism experts" were ever saying that ETA wasnt capable of this level of attack - they havent been saying that at all (what they were saying is that arrests have reduced the groups numbers and that this was the lowest number of deaths year since the groups inception (though again, if they were focusing on this attack then that is understandable)).
I raised the point about suicide bombers because, in more of its attacks than not, the suicide bomber has been the preferred mode of attack, and if this was an al-Qaeda attack (which are known for their symbolism) then one would have expected a suicide bomber to have been used, if for no other reason than its impact.
hops
Member
The date the action was carried out: 3/11/2004.
2 1/2 years exactly after 9/11/2001.
Coincidence? I do not believe in them all that much. It is human nature to leave a pattern - even if unintentional (subconciously).
Spain is a U.S. ally in the war against Islamic radicals.
Spain also was the last place in western europe that Islam held - until early 1500's. Fits in very well with the Jihad angle.
Too many conicidences to make this a not an Al-Queda event.
ETA - may have assisted; safe houses, explosive; perhaps.
I'm sure all the intelligance agencies are now working overtime.
2 1/2 years exactly after 9/11/2001.
Coincidence? I do not believe in them all that much. It is human nature to leave a pattern - even if unintentional (subconciously).
Spain is a U.S. ally in the war against Islamic radicals.
Spain also was the last place in western europe that Islam held - until early 1500's. Fits in very well with the Jihad angle.
Too many conicidences to make this a not an Al-Queda event.
ETA - may have assisted; safe houses, explosive; perhaps.
I'm sure all the intelligance agencies are now working overtime.
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
FOX is also reporting that the attack was 911 days after 9/11/01. I have not done the math.
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
I think we need to send some 'coincidental" missiles up their collective hindquarters and some "ironic" SecOp teams into their caves and hovels wherever they may be 
bountyhunter
member
Also, Al Qaeda sets "sucker punch" bombs to go off a few minutes later at the same location to kill medical workers and those giving aid to the victims. It ups the kill ratio because the first bomb "draws a crowd" for obvious reasons.
There is no doubt in my mind this was al Qaeda or Al qaeda has aligned with the local terrorist groups. That is exactly what AQ has done in Iraq, hooking up with the forces formerly loyal to Saddam who now fight simply to control the country. Since we conveniently took out Hussein, the old blood fued between he and OBL is moot and the various factions who share a hatred of the US are hooking up.
agricola
Member
thats not unique to Al-Qaeda - its a favourite ETA tactic (see the link I posted) and PIRA used to do it all the time (the Warrington bomb).
Mike Irwin
Member
ETA just DENIED responsibility for the bombings.
They've never denied responsibility for a bombing for which they've been responsible.
Of course, they're doing that just to throw people off the track.
And, again, the evidence doesn't conclusively point to ETA, a point which I've repeatedly made, and which numerous terrorism experts have noted, as well.
"That was the implication of what you said."
Your interpretation. Did I say it was impossible for them to do so? No, I didn't. I based my comment on ETA's historic actions, all of which show absolutely NO propensity to conduct an operation of this scope.
It's also your interpretation that I apparently think of them as some sort of joke. Sure, groups running around setting off bombs is a highly humorous situation. I obviously get one hell of a chuckle every time something blows up in Britain.
They've never denied responsibility for a bombing for which they've been responsible.
Of course, they're doing that just to throw people off the track.
And, again, the evidence doesn't conclusively point to ETA, a point which I've repeatedly made, and which numerous terrorism experts have noted, as well.
"That was the implication of what you said."
Your interpretation. Did I say it was impossible for them to do so? No, I didn't. I based my comment on ETA's historic actions, all of which show absolutely NO propensity to conduct an operation of this scope.
It's also your interpretation that I apparently think of them as some sort of joke. Sure, groups running around setting off bombs is a highly humorous situation. I obviously get one hell of a chuckle every time something blows up in Britain.
agricola
Member
for gods sake Mike,
your implication was clear (that ETA werent capable of this), the evidence doesnt support any conclusion as yet but what it does points to ETA or a splinter as the most likely group responsible - a point which you have consistently ignored.
your implication was clear (that ETA werent capable of this), the evidence doesnt support any conclusion as yet but what it does points to ETA or a splinter as the most likely group responsible - a point which you have consistently ignored.
Baba Louie
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,831
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114023,00.html
MADRID, Spain — Just months ago, a taped threat thought to be from Usama bin Laden (search) included Spain among countries that could be attacked "at the appropriate time and place."
After Thursday's train bombings in Madrid (search), the government quickly blamed the Basque separatist group ETA (search). But later the interior minister said Islamic terrorism was not ruled out.
Bin Laden's warning was contained in an audiotape in October that the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (search) determined was probably authentic.
Spanish and other anti-terrorism officials say Spain was an important European center for Al Qaeda activity before the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks in the United States.
No one knows anything right now or isn't talking. ETA claimed they didn't do it. Is that their M.O.?
Examination of the three remaining backpack bombs indicate detonators linked to cell phone alarms set to go off a 7:39 local time.
Curioser and curioser...
MADRID, Spain — Just months ago, a taped threat thought to be from Usama bin Laden (search) included Spain among countries that could be attacked "at the appropriate time and place."
After Thursday's train bombings in Madrid (search), the government quickly blamed the Basque separatist group ETA (search). But later the interior minister said Islamic terrorism was not ruled out.
Bin Laden's warning was contained in an audiotape in October that the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (search) determined was probably authentic.
Spanish and other anti-terrorism officials say Spain was an important European center for Al Qaeda activity before the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks in the United States.
No one knows anything right now or isn't talking. ETA claimed they didn't do it. Is that their M.O.?
Examination of the three remaining backpack bombs indicate detonators linked to cell phone alarms set to go off a 7:39 local time.
Curioser and curioser...
Mike Irwin
Member
Lord, Agricola, you CAN'T read, can you?
"Also, its a fallacious argument to claim that "international terrorism experts" were ever saying that ETA wasnt capable of this level of attack..."
Please point to the EXACT message where I claimed that international terrorism experts say that ETA isn't CAPABLE of this attack.
I'll give you a hint.
I didn't.
Here's what I ACTUALLY said, not what you've constructed in your mind.
"It's also funny that a number of international terrorism experts who have been interviewed for a number of news sources also feel that this attack is not typical of an ETA attack. But, then again, what do they know?"
Wow. Look at that. Notice the lack of things like "International terrorism experts say that ETA isn't capable of this kind of attack," or similar phrasing.
Notice how it says that it's not TYPICAL of an ETA attack.
Of course, I guess aross the pond, not typical may actually be a euphamistic expression for "absolutely not, no way no how, never on the face of the earth, in heaven above, or hell below."
Go figure...
Now that ETA has denied responsibility for the blast, which I suspected that they would do because they're not responsible for it, we need to once again take a look at the kind of organization that ETA is, and the type of actions that it has carried out in the past.
NEVER before has ETA attempted such a large, coordinated, attack.
As I've continually said, their organizational structure, or in reality lack of a formal organizational structure, makes coordinating such an attack not impossible, but exceptionally difficult for what is believed to be an organization with no more than, at best, a few dozen hard-core operatives and a few hundred loyal supporters.
"Also, its a fallacious argument to claim that "international terrorism experts" were ever saying that ETA wasnt capable of this level of attack..."
Please point to the EXACT message where I claimed that international terrorism experts say that ETA isn't CAPABLE of this attack.
I'll give you a hint.
I didn't.
Here's what I ACTUALLY said, not what you've constructed in your mind.
"It's also funny that a number of international terrorism experts who have been interviewed for a number of news sources also feel that this attack is not typical of an ETA attack. But, then again, what do they know?"
Wow. Look at that. Notice the lack of things like "International terrorism experts say that ETA isn't capable of this kind of attack," or similar phrasing.
Notice how it says that it's not TYPICAL of an ETA attack.
Of course, I guess aross the pond, not typical may actually be a euphamistic expression for "absolutely not, no way no how, never on the face of the earth, in heaven above, or hell below."
Go figure...
Now that ETA has denied responsibility for the blast, which I suspected that they would do because they're not responsible for it, we need to once again take a look at the kind of organization that ETA is, and the type of actions that it has carried out in the past.
NEVER before has ETA attempted such a large, coordinated, attack.
As I've continually said, their organizational structure, or in reality lack of a formal organizational structure, makes coordinating such an attack not impossible, but exceptionally difficult for what is believed to be an organization with no more than, at best, a few dozen hard-core operatives and a few hundred loyal supporters.
Mike Irwin
Member
And good God right back at you, Agricola...
Your own news services have laid out evidence that just as convincingly, if not more so convincingly, points at groups other than ETA. I know that's a hard concept to wrap yourself around, just as it's a really, really hard concept for you to grasp that I don't, in fact, view ETA or any other terrorist organization as a joke.
From Reuters...
"MADRID (Reuters) - Millions of Spaniards chanting "Killers" took to the streets on Friday to protest against the Madrid bombings that killed nearly 200 people, as Basque separatist group ETA rejected government charges of blame.
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and EU President Romano Prodi joined Spanish leaders and royal family members at the head of a march in Madrid in a huge show of unity a day after the bombs ripped through four packed commuter trains.
ETA said it was not responsible for the blasts that also wounded nearly 1,500 people, but Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar said the group remained the focus of inquiry.
"An ETA message has arrived saying that it bore no responsibility for the attack," ETB Basque public television reported."
From the BBC, in case you don't believe Reuters...
"Officials say Basque militants from Eta remain the main suspects - but Basque media are carrying a statement, said to be from the group, denying involvement."
Your own news services have laid out evidence that just as convincingly, if not more so convincingly, points at groups other than ETA. I know that's a hard concept to wrap yourself around, just as it's a really, really hard concept for you to grasp that I don't, in fact, view ETA or any other terrorist organization as a joke.
From Reuters...
"MADRID (Reuters) - Millions of Spaniards chanting "Killers" took to the streets on Friday to protest against the Madrid bombings that killed nearly 200 people, as Basque separatist group ETA rejected government charges of blame.
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and EU President Romano Prodi joined Spanish leaders and royal family members at the head of a march in Madrid in a huge show of unity a day after the bombs ripped through four packed commuter trains.
ETA said it was not responsible for the blasts that also wounded nearly 1,500 people, but Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar said the group remained the focus of inquiry.
"An ETA message has arrived saying that it bore no responsibility for the attack," ETB Basque public television reported."
From the BBC, in case you don't believe Reuters...
"Officials say Basque militants from Eta remain the main suspects - but Basque media are carrying a statement, said to be from the group, denying involvement."
Mike Irwin
Member
And, from the Associated Press...
"MADRID, Spain (AP) -- The armed Basque separatist group ETA Friday denied responsibility for the Madrid terrorist attacks, according to Gara, a Basque-language newspaper.
The pro-Basque daily told The Associated Press a caller claiming to represent ETA telephoned its newsroom to deny government allegations that the group was behind Thursday's bomb blasts.
ETA ``has no responsibility whatsover for the Madrid attacks,'' an official at the paper quoted the caller as saying.
ETA often issues statements through Gara."
The fact that the announcement came through Gara makes it a lot more believable. Gara, as noted above, has been the paper most often used by ETA to claim responsibility for actions, and also to disseminate its demands.
"MADRID, Spain (AP) -- The armed Basque separatist group ETA Friday denied responsibility for the Madrid terrorist attacks, according to Gara, a Basque-language newspaper.
The pro-Basque daily told The Associated Press a caller claiming to represent ETA telephoned its newsroom to deny government allegations that the group was behind Thursday's bomb blasts.
ETA ``has no responsibility whatsover for the Madrid attacks,'' an official at the paper quoted the caller as saying.
ETA often issues statements through Gara."
The fact that the announcement came through Gara makes it a lot more believable. Gara, as noted above, has been the paper most often used by ETA to claim responsibility for actions, and also to disseminate its demands.
HunterGatherer
member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2004
- Messages
- 379
Well now the only logical choice, for all the good Euro-socialists, is to blame the Mossad/CIA/Kings of Zion. Everybody knows that the nice death-cult psychotics from Al Qaeda can't be to blame.
Mike Irwin
Member
And, from the Associated Press...
"MADRID, Spain (AP) -- The armed Basque separatist group ETA Friday denied responsibility for the Madrid terrorist attacks, according to Gara, a Basque-language newspaper.
The pro-Basque daily told The Associated Press a caller claiming to represent ETA telephoned its newsroom to deny government allegations that the group was behind Thursday's bomb blasts.
ETA ``has no responsibility whatsover for the Madrid attacks,'' an official at the paper quoted the caller as saying.
ETA often issues statements through Gara."
The fact that the announcement came through Gara makes it a lot more believable. Gara, as noted above, has been the paper most often used by ETA to claim responsibility for actions, and also to disseminate its demands.
"MADRID, Spain (AP) -- The armed Basque separatist group ETA Friday denied responsibility for the Madrid terrorist attacks, according to Gara, a Basque-language newspaper.
The pro-Basque daily told The Associated Press a caller claiming to represent ETA telephoned its newsroom to deny government allegations that the group was behind Thursday's bomb blasts.
ETA ``has no responsibility whatsover for the Madrid attacks,'' an official at the paper quoted the caller as saying.
ETA often issues statements through Gara."
The fact that the announcement came through Gara makes it a lot more believable. Gara, as noted above, has been the paper most often used by ETA to claim responsibility for actions, and also to disseminate its demands.
- Status