130 plus killed in four bombings in Madrid
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130+? That figure has rocketed up since I last heard three hours ago, was 60 odd then. Terrible terrible thing.
Spanish officials have been quick to point the finger at ETA which seems reasonable, except that this is a departure in style for ETA. Doesn't mean it isn't them, but they tend more to assassinations, targeting the guardia and warned of blasts. If this is them it is a new low for them.
We should also remember that the coalition of late has been USA, Britain and Spain, remember the meetings in the Azores. Way too early to say but that may be a factor in which case ETA are unlikely to be involved. [/tinfoil hat off?]
edit - they have changed the figure on that article since ag posted it. It now stands at 170. I expect it will go up from there. Damn them.
Spanish officials have been quick to point the finger at ETA which seems reasonable, except that this is a departure in style for ETA. Doesn't mean it isn't them, but they tend more to assassinations, targeting the guardia and warned of blasts. If this is them it is a new low for them.
We should also remember that the coalition of late has been USA, Britain and Spain, remember the meetings in the Azores. Way too early to say but that may be a factor in which case ETA are unlikely to be involved. [/tinfoil hat off?]
edit - they have changed the figure on that article since ag posted it. It now stands at 170. I expect it will go up from there. Damn them.
Stand_Watie
Member
Horrible. They're reporting 170 dead now.
If it was the ETA I suspect they've done their cause immeasurable harm.
If it was the ETA I suspect they've done their cause immeasurable harm.
seeker_two
Member
I'm thinking this is more al-Quaeda's doing. They're going after our allies now...
Let's all remember to pray for those affected by this...
Let's all remember to pray for those affected by this...
mtnbkr
Member
They're blaming it on Basque separatists at the moment. Basque separatist groups are pointing to Al-Qaeda. This wouldn't be the first time the Basque have used violence.
Chris
It certainly isn't the first time ETA have resorted to violence. But to put it in perspective, ETA have been carrying out terrorist actions for thirty years or so. In that time the estimated number of murders they have committed runs to about 800. If this is them they have increased their death toll by nearly a quarter in one day.
I really like the Basque people, spent a while in SW France, N Spain during one of my university summers. Anthropologically they are interesting, quite different to the Spanish and French 'normal' population. probably most closely related to the Welsh. Believed to both be remanants of an earlier migration to Europe than most of the present inhabitants and were driven to the corners of Europe by them. The Basque language is totally unrelated to any other language on earth as far as linguists can tell, closest in fact are some Inuit languages. The Welsh are believed to have shared a similar language orignally but lost it in favour of a later Celtic tongue. Basque words have lots of 'x's in them.
A lot of Basque resentment is due to Franco. Guernika was/is a Basque town and the subject of the first civilian targeted air raid. Under Franco all regional languages and customs were banned, Spain has always been a very diverse country. Catalan's were severely affected by this too. All this is no excuse for terrorism however, nor should we really call them separatists, especially if this mass act of murder is them.
Strange thought, but Spain has been a battleground before and for many long centuries. However you want to paint it, much blood was shed taking Spain back from the Moors who themselves were reasonably tolerant rulers. Responsible for some of the most beautiful architecture in Europe too, went to Granada myself just after New Year.
I'm leaning towards this not being ETA, or it being a new group equivalent to the 'Real IRA'.
I really like the Basque people, spent a while in SW France, N Spain during one of my university summers. Anthropologically they are interesting, quite different to the Spanish and French 'normal' population. probably most closely related to the Welsh. Believed to both be remanants of an earlier migration to Europe than most of the present inhabitants and were driven to the corners of Europe by them. The Basque language is totally unrelated to any other language on earth as far as linguists can tell, closest in fact are some Inuit languages. The Welsh are believed to have shared a similar language orignally but lost it in favour of a later Celtic tongue. Basque words have lots of 'x's in them.
A lot of Basque resentment is due to Franco. Guernika was/is a Basque town and the subject of the first civilian targeted air raid. Under Franco all regional languages and customs were banned, Spain has always been a very diverse country. Catalan's were severely affected by this too. All this is no excuse for terrorism however, nor should we really call them separatists, especially if this mass act of murder is them.
Strange thought, but Spain has been a battleground before and for many long centuries. However you want to paint it, much blood was shed taking Spain back from the Moors who themselves were reasonably tolerant rulers. Responsible for some of the most beautiful architecture in Europe too, went to Granada myself just after New Year.
I'm leaning towards this not being ETA, or it being a new group equivalent to the 'Real IRA'.
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
This has Islamoextremist written all over it.. As St. Johns pointed out, this was not the MO of ETA. It is way too coincidental that Spain stood with us during the dust-up with the UN, and is adjacent to France...
capt_happypants
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This link has excellent coverage from Spain.
http://www.iberiannotes.blogspot.com/
Casualty count is 175 dead, over 898 wounded. Thirteen bombs planted, 10 detonated, three disarmed. Authorities are pointing to the ETA as the prime suspect.
I have an old friend from college working in Madrid.
Erika, I hope you're all right.
http://www.iberiannotes.blogspot.com/
Casualty count is 175 dead, over 898 wounded. Thirteen bombs planted, 10 detonated, three disarmed. Authorities are pointing to the ETA as the prime suspect.
I have an old friend from college working in Madrid.
Erika, I hope you're all right.
gruven
Member
From the blog capt_happypants posted:
I wonder if there will be any fallout here in the U.S. such as a push for airport-style security at train stations.
I wonder if there will be any fallout here in the U.S. such as a push for airport-style security at train stations.
Waitone
Member
<snif>
How does one cry through a monitor?
IIRC Spain has no death penalty as appears customary to European tradition. So I guess if they do indeed catch the perps they'll have to rehabilitate them. Great deterrance. Kill and maim 1,000+ people and go to jail for rehab. Just doesn't seem proportional to me.
Lex Talonus
How does one cry through a monitor?
IIRC Spain has no death penalty as appears customary to European tradition. So I guess if they do indeed catch the perps they'll have to rehabilitate them. Great deterrance. Kill and maim 1,000+ people and go to jail for rehab. Just doesn't seem proportional to me.
Lex Talonus
agricola
Member
sorry to dissapoint, but its unlikely the likes of al-Qaeda are behind this (anymore than they were behind Omagh)- ETA have been caught twice in recent months trying something along similar lines:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3520071.stm (at the bottom).
the desperate act of a movement being put into the dustbin of history IMHO, though after this there will be a long queue of Spaniards wanting to kick them into it themselves.
waitone,
I wouldnt put any money on the Guarda Civil allowing them to make it as far as gaol - "shot while resisting arrest" perhaps, that is if ETA itself doesnt make penance first with the heads of those responsible.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3520071.stm (at the bottom).
the desperate act of a movement being put into the dustbin of history IMHO, though after this there will be a long queue of Spaniards wanting to kick them into it themselves.
waitone,
I wouldnt put any money on the Guarda Civil allowing them to make it as far as gaol - "shot while resisting arrest" perhaps, that is if ETA itself doesnt make penance first with the heads of those responsible.
longeyes
member
According to Fox news, Spanish authorities are now saying they've found detonators nearby with Arabic language instructions, along with Koran verses.
El Tejon
Member
ag, why do you think that the New Barbary pirates are not responsible for this?
The Euros knew that it was only a matter of time after 9/11 that they would go after the junior Satans, right?
The Euros knew that it was only a matter of time after 9/11 that they would go after the junior Satans, right?
agricola
Member
el tejon,
because they have been caught trying to do exactly the same thing only three months ago. Is it possible that the islamists did this? Of course it is -but (sadly) they dont hold a monopoly on blowing innocent civilians up and ETA have a long and bloody history of doing the same thing.
because they have been caught trying to do exactly the same thing only three months ago. Is it possible that the islamists did this? Of course it is -but (sadly) they dont hold a monopoly on blowing innocent civilians up and ETA have a long and bloody history of doing the same thing.
SAG0282
Member
FWIW, I suspect Al Qaida involvement.
My thoughts are with the families and the injured today.
My thoughts are with the families and the injured today.
Mike Irwin
Member
The Spanish interior minister just announced that a van has been found near the scene of the bombings. Inside were 7 detonators and a tape with recorded passages from the Koran.
If this is true it's looking like there could be Al Queda involvement.
If this is true it's looking like there could be Al Queda involvement.
Baba Louie
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Reuters out of London now report a letter to an Arabic paper there claiming Al-Q... or so says Fox news at 12:00 PCT
http://reuters.com/news.jhtml
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter purporting to come from Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the train bombings in Spain on Thursday, calling them strikes against "crusaders," a London-based Arabic newspaper said.
"We have succeeded in infiltrating the heart of crusader Europe and struck one of the bases of the crusader alliance," said the letter which called the attacks "Operation Death Trains." There was no way of authenticating the letter, a copy of which was faxed to Reuters' office in Dubai by the London-based al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper.
The letter bore the signature "Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades." The newspaper received similar letters from the same brigade claiming responsibility on behalf of al Qaeda for a November bombing of two synagogues in Turkey and the August bombing of the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad.
http://reuters.com/news.jhtml
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter purporting to come from Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the train bombings in Spain on Thursday, calling them strikes against "crusaders," a London-based Arabic newspaper said.
"We have succeeded in infiltrating the heart of crusader Europe and struck one of the bases of the crusader alliance," said the letter which called the attacks "Operation Death Trains." There was no way of authenticating the letter, a copy of which was faxed to Reuters' office in Dubai by the London-based al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper.
The letter bore the signature "Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades." The newspaper received similar letters from the same brigade claiming responsibility on behalf of al Qaeda for a November bombing of two synagogues in Turkey and the August bombing of the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad.
HankB
Member
Could be Basque separatists, could be Al-Qaeda.
We won't know for sure its the latter until we see the usual talking heads surface on TV spouting their usual message that Islam is the religion of peace.
We won't know for sure its the latter until we see the usual talking heads surface on TV spouting their usual message that Islam is the religion of peace.
I see the probability of a big smoke screen. Al-Queda is on everyones mind. The Basque's could leave misinformation like this behind and it could be swallowed hook line and sinker. Don'tknow who was responsible but there are going to be lots of people on lists that will be very nervous.
Mike Irwin
Member
Couple problems with that, Bruce.
Primarily, the Basques don't want to blame someone else, they want their own homeland, so if they blow something up, they're going to want to take credit for it and use it as an opportunity to reiterate their demands. They're not going to be shy about their operations. They've never been so in the past.
Also, if all of what we're seeing about this (10 backpack bombs exploding simultaneously) it's too large and well organized for ETA.
I think this is going to be an Al Queda event all the way.
Primarily, the Basques don't want to blame someone else, they want their own homeland, so if they blow something up, they're going to want to take credit for it and use it as an opportunity to reiterate their demands. They're not going to be shy about their operations. They've never been so in the past.
Also, if all of what we're seeing about this (10 backpack bombs exploding simultaneously) it's too large and well organized for ETA.
I think this is going to be an Al Queda event all the way.
agricola
Member
Mike,
ETA isnt a joke movement, you know - they were able to whack one Spanish PM during the Franco era, as well as repeatedly locate and execute various members of the Spanish military and Police elite (as well as Basques who didnt agree with ETA), to a total of 800 down the years. In the Euroterrorism phase of the late 70s and early 80s they, along with PIRA, probably were the best trained and most capable terrorist group in the world (that includes the likes of the Red Brigades / N17 / Action Directe and any Islamist group then or now).
Besides, you would only need between one and three guys for this (all the stations were on the same line apparently - he just has to find an out-of-the-way station and drop the bombs on the trains as they stop). I wouldnt put too much stock on ETA not acknowledging it as well - to do so would probably be suicidal politically given the mood the Spanish people are in now (and that includes the Basques). Check out what happened to RIRA after the Omagh bomb.
In addition, I wouldnt set too much store by the sophistication of al Qaeda; after all, 9/11 was very simple and low-tech, which is why it worked.
ETA isnt a joke movement, you know - they were able to whack one Spanish PM during the Franco era, as well as repeatedly locate and execute various members of the Spanish military and Police elite (as well as Basques who didnt agree with ETA), to a total of 800 down the years. In the Euroterrorism phase of the late 70s and early 80s they, along with PIRA, probably were the best trained and most capable terrorist group in the world (that includes the likes of the Red Brigades / N17 / Action Directe and any Islamist group then or now).
Besides, you would only need between one and three guys for this (all the stations were on the same line apparently - he just has to find an out-of-the-way station and drop the bombs on the trains as they stop). I wouldnt put too much stock on ETA not acknowledging it as well - to do so would probably be suicidal politically given the mood the Spanish people are in now (and that includes the Basques). Check out what happened to RIRA after the Omagh bomb.
In addition, I wouldnt set too much store by the sophistication of al Qaeda; after all, 9/11 was very simple and low-tech, which is why it worked.
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