goalie
Member
If the bombing would be political suicide for a seperatist movement, then please explain why they would do it?
130 plus killed in four bombings in Madrid
- Thread starter agricola
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Mike Irwin
Member
Agricola,
Ah, yes, I implied, infered, insinuated, and downright stated that ETA is populated by a bunch of people wearing baggy pants, long floppy shoes, and honk-honk noses! That's right, they're Clowns! Cue Barnum, Bailey & Sons music! The Joke's on them!
Go back and actually READ what the hell I wrote.
ETA has never shown the propensity OR desire to carry out this kind of coordinated, mass attack before using this number of devices. That alone is a key bit of evidence. The Spanish believe that the hard-core violent core of ETA is no more than 20 to 30 individuals, and that the structure of the group is exceptionally fragmented, making it very difficult to coordinate what would need to be a planned assault. Of course, one ETA member could have gotten onto the train with 10 backpacks. That wouldn't have looked odd at all...
As I said, and as the group itself has shown, ETA has never been shy about claiming responsibility for its attacks, normally in a matter of a few hours.
We're now what, nearly 20 hours after the attacks and so far Al Queda has claimed it, but ETA hasn't. Curious, no?
So let's see. We've got a series of highly coordinated attacks at multiple locations, something that ETA has never done before, but which Al Queda has.
We've got a group with a very fragmented structure, one that's believed to be very small, and one with a very heirarchical military like structure that's extremely well funded and has shown to be capable of precisely coordinated operations.
Yep, that certainly makes ETA a joke and Al Queda a serious customer...
So yes, pull up a chair for the ETA commedy hour! Joke's on them, obviously. Or people who read WAY too much into 5 lines of text.
And yes, ETA did get PM Admiral Luis Carrero Blanco, the likely successor to Franco. And one guy, acting alone, offed Olaf Palme.
Ah, yes, I implied, infered, insinuated, and downright stated that ETA is populated by a bunch of people wearing baggy pants, long floppy shoes, and honk-honk noses! That's right, they're Clowns! Cue Barnum, Bailey & Sons music! The Joke's on them!
Go back and actually READ what the hell I wrote.
ETA has never shown the propensity OR desire to carry out this kind of coordinated, mass attack before using this number of devices. That alone is a key bit of evidence. The Spanish believe that the hard-core violent core of ETA is no more than 20 to 30 individuals, and that the structure of the group is exceptionally fragmented, making it very difficult to coordinate what would need to be a planned assault. Of course, one ETA member could have gotten onto the train with 10 backpacks. That wouldn't have looked odd at all...
As I said, and as the group itself has shown, ETA has never been shy about claiming responsibility for its attacks, normally in a matter of a few hours.
We're now what, nearly 20 hours after the attacks and so far Al Queda has claimed it, but ETA hasn't. Curious, no?
So let's see. We've got a series of highly coordinated attacks at multiple locations, something that ETA has never done before, but which Al Queda has.
We've got a group with a very fragmented structure, one that's believed to be very small, and one with a very heirarchical military like structure that's extremely well funded and has shown to be capable of precisely coordinated operations.
Yep, that certainly makes ETA a joke and Al Queda a serious customer...
So yes, pull up a chair for the ETA commedy hour! Joke's on them, obviously. Or people who read WAY too much into 5 lines of text.
And yes, ETA did get PM Admiral Luis Carrero Blanco, the likely successor to Franco. And one guy, acting alone, offed Olaf Palme.
greyhound
Member
Not to be morbid, but this is the kind of stuff I thought was going to be happening constantly here (USA) after 9/11.
If it is Al-Queda, today is exactly 2 1/2 years after 9/11....
I have no idea, but as of yet there are reports of Al-Queda taking credit and ETA denying, not that that's proof.
Spain stood by us when many others didn't, so no matter who it was they deserve all the help and good will we can give.
If it is Al-Queda, today is exactly 2 1/2 years after 9/11....
I have no idea, but as of yet there are reports of Al-Queda taking credit and ETA denying, not that that's proof.
Spain stood by us when many others didn't, so no matter who it was they deserve all the help and good will we can give.
Mike Irwin
Member
"Al Queda taking, and ETA denying..."
You're right, Greyhound, that's not proof.
But it's VERY informative.
As I said, ETA has never been shy about claiming their deeds.
But, I guess since I think they're a joke, maybe they issued the wrong press statement?
You're right, Greyhound, that's not proof.
But it's VERY informative.
As I said, ETA has never been shy about claiming their deeds.
But, I guess since I think they're a joke, maybe they issued the wrong press statement?
agricola
Member
Mike,
He doesnt have to get onto the train with ten backpacks - he (or him and a colleague) just has to get on once or twice at a station, drop the parcel and then get off - then wait for the next train, and so on and so forth.
My point about "clowns" was that it seems, from what you wrote and what other people have said, that the belief over there is that ETA is not capable of doing this. If, for instance, PIRA wanted to do something similar, they could do it quite easily - but they dont because they know the political fallout isnt worth it. Recent arrests (as you allude to) have left ETA smaller than it has ever been, and so this attack might well be viewed as an all-or-nothing outrage to galvanize support at home and provoke a reaction from the Spanish Government.
ETA are more than capable of doing this - they have the skills, and whats more (and is being ignored by all here) they were caught in the act of doing precisely the same thing three months ago.
goalie,
its probably an act of desperation. Why did RIRA blow up Omagh?
He doesnt have to get onto the train with ten backpacks - he (or him and a colleague) just has to get on once or twice at a station, drop the parcel and then get off - then wait for the next train, and so on and so forth.
My point about "clowns" was that it seems, from what you wrote and what other people have said, that the belief over there is that ETA is not capable of doing this. If, for instance, PIRA wanted to do something similar, they could do it quite easily - but they dont because they know the political fallout isnt worth it. Recent arrests (as you allude to) have left ETA smaller than it has ever been, and so this attack might well be viewed as an all-or-nothing outrage to galvanize support at home and provoke a reaction from the Spanish Government.
ETA are more than capable of doing this - they have the skills, and whats more (and is being ignored by all here) they were caught in the act of doing precisely the same thing three months ago.
goalie,
its probably an act of desperation. Why did RIRA blow up Omagh?
The U.S. Associated Press wire service in now reporting that Al-Queda is taking credit for the bombings. The truth about this is yet to be confirmed, but for the moment it would seem that Al Queda did the deed, and it fits their M.O.
goalie
Member
They have a saying in the medical professions:
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."
Dr Cox does indeed rule does he not goalie?
Ag is right, ETA are capable and have shown some willingness to do things like this before. Just a week or so ago a truck driven by a known Basque militant was stopped and found to be containing 536kg of 'high explosive'. Who knows what 'high explosive' is specifically, sometimes it seems to be used to describe vinegar and baking soda. I'm not saying this isn't ETA, I'm just slightly suspicious that these horses may indeed have stripes.
Ag is right, ETA are capable and have shown some willingness to do things like this before. Just a week or so ago a truck driven by a known Basque militant was stopped and found to be containing 536kg of 'high explosive'. Who knows what 'high explosive' is specifically, sometimes it seems to be used to describe vinegar and baking soda. I'm not saying this isn't ETA, I'm just slightly suspicious that these horses may indeed have stripes.
longeyes
member
I think we have a case of "desert-loving English" on this board.
agricola
Member
er... no
Look, the attacks parallel a known ETA failed attack from before Christmas which would have had similar results had it worked. ETA have also recently (as well as in the past) shown disregard for civilian casualties - bombing tourist resorts and supermarkets, as well as trains.
The alleged responsibility claim from al-Qaeda comes in fact in the form of an email from a group (Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades) which also claimed responsibility for the Istanbul bombings, the attack on Italian carabineri in Nasaryiah and the attack on the UN HQ in Baghdad - claims which are now known to have been false.
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=474353§ion=news
In addition, these attacks were not the work of suicide bombers, which if that had been the case would suggest Islamic terrorists were behind it.
agricola
Member
oh, and FWIW I would think that if any Islamist group were behind this, it would be the GIA.
Drizzt
Member
I don't see that ETA couldn't have done it, but I don't see any benefit to them to do so, then not take credit. How does it benefit them otherwise?
agricola
Member
drizzt,
who knows what goes on inside the minds of a terrorist? i would guess its something like reminding the Spanish and Basque people that ETA is still there (like RIRA probably did in Omagh).
who knows what goes on inside the minds of a terrorist? i would guess its something like reminding the Spanish and Basque people that ETA is still there (like RIRA probably did in Omagh).
bedlamite
Member
Glock Glockler
Member
If one looks at the effect of this bombing it would become apparent that if it was done by ETA it would not intimidate the Spanish into letting them seceed but would only inspire them to annihilate the Basques. It's not like the Basques are an elusive organization that cannot be pinned to a certain location, everyone knows where the Basques are and there are a lot more Spanish than Basques, and the Spanish have more guns. My money is on the Spanish.
If you look at the effects of bombing if it was Al Queda it would result in killing infidels, possibly breaking the alliance that killed Muslims in Iraq (Iraq was not our (Spain) war, this wouldnt have happened if we minded our own business), or it would harden the alliance and promote an overall division between the infidels and faithful followers of Islam. This is what Bin Laden wants, a great world war which will unite all Islam under him.
One very beneficial side effect is that there will certainly be reprisals by the Spanish (and possibly other European countires) on their respective Muslim populations who are already ingrained in Europe. There is already plenty of tension between the Europeans and the Muslims they brought in, if Europeans start dying in terrorist bombings like you will start to see A LOT of Muslims beaten and killed, perhaps en masse. A series of bombings of the European population will trigger a de facto race war that turn it into a Balkan/Gaza mess.
If it was ETA they deserve the stupidity award of the decade, if it was Al Quada they deserve the genius award of the decade.
If you look at the effects of bombing if it was Al Queda it would result in killing infidels, possibly breaking the alliance that killed Muslims in Iraq (Iraq was not our (Spain) war, this wouldnt have happened if we minded our own business), or it would harden the alliance and promote an overall division between the infidels and faithful followers of Islam. This is what Bin Laden wants, a great world war which will unite all Islam under him.
One very beneficial side effect is that there will certainly be reprisals by the Spanish (and possibly other European countires) on their respective Muslim populations who are already ingrained in Europe. There is already plenty of tension between the Europeans and the Muslims they brought in, if Europeans start dying in terrorist bombings like you will start to see A LOT of Muslims beaten and killed, perhaps en masse. A series of bombings of the European population will trigger a de facto race war that turn it into a Balkan/Gaza mess.
If it was ETA they deserve the stupidity award of the decade, if it was Al Quada they deserve the genius award of the decade.
Mike Irwin
Member
No, Agricola, suspected ETA operatives were caught in the act of delivering 2 large truck bombs. Again, quite different from what we're talking about here.
And, once again, I NEVER said that ETA wasn't capable of doing this, but that given the scope and planning required by the operation it's likely not ETA.
If you wish to misinterpret what I've said, and worse, put words in my mouth, please keep it to yourself.
Also, I've still not heard from you any compelling reason why ETA hasn't claimed responsibility if it is, in fact, its work, given ETA's past performance.
In any event, I stand by my previous assessment (which does NOT include a dismissive attitude toward ETA) that this attack is not characteristic of ETA's actions. If ETA did this, they'd be contacting every major news organ in the world to claim responsibility and push their demands for an independent Basque homeland.
I'm going to further prognosticate and say that this attack will eventually be tied to Al Queda members who entered Spain through Algeria.
And, once again, I NEVER said that ETA wasn't capable of doing this, but that given the scope and planning required by the operation it's likely not ETA.
If you wish to misinterpret what I've said, and worse, put words in my mouth, please keep it to yourself.
Also, I've still not heard from you any compelling reason why ETA hasn't claimed responsibility if it is, in fact, its work, given ETA's past performance.
In any event, I stand by my previous assessment (which does NOT include a dismissive attitude toward ETA) that this attack is not characteristic of ETA's actions. If ETA did this, they'd be contacting every major news organ in the world to claim responsibility and push their demands for an independent Basque homeland.
I'm going to further prognosticate and say that this attack will eventually be tied to Al Queda members who entered Spain through Algeria.
Mike Irwin
Member
"It's not like the Basques are an elusive organization..."
The Basques aren't, but ETA is, and has been since 1959, when it first became known to Spanish and French authorities. The Spanish government has been trying for decades, and failing, to infiltrate ETA because it's so small and so fractured organizationally. It has no cadre of centralized commanders, it has no large operative cells, it has no cohesive plan of action that written down in a big book somewhere.
And contrary to what others have said here, at this time there's no evidence at all to indicate whether or not the bombers died in this blast. Even if they weren't suicide bombers, not every Arab bomber is a suicide bomber. Suicide bombing works well when you're attacking a hardened, guarded target like the American embassies in Africa a few years ago.
The first attack against the World Trade Center in 1993 was carried out by Islamic radicals who parked the truck bomb in the parking garage and WALKED AWAY.
It wasn't until the failure of that bomb to topple the building that the concept for a suicide mission by aircraft was conceived.
It's also not in the interests of the Spanish to attempt to deal with the ETA problem by executing every Basque in Spain, the majority of whom really don't care about ETA or its issues.
The Basques aren't, but ETA is, and has been since 1959, when it first became known to Spanish and French authorities. The Spanish government has been trying for decades, and failing, to infiltrate ETA because it's so small and so fractured organizationally. It has no cadre of centralized commanders, it has no large operative cells, it has no cohesive plan of action that written down in a big book somewhere.
And contrary to what others have said here, at this time there's no evidence at all to indicate whether or not the bombers died in this blast. Even if they weren't suicide bombers, not every Arab bomber is a suicide bomber. Suicide bombing works well when you're attacking a hardened, guarded target like the American embassies in Africa a few years ago.
The first attack against the World Trade Center in 1993 was carried out by Islamic radicals who parked the truck bomb in the parking garage and WALKED AWAY.
It wasn't until the failure of that bomb to topple the building that the concept for a suicide mission by aircraft was conceived.
It's also not in the interests of the Spanish to attempt to deal with the ETA problem by executing every Basque in Spain, the majority of whom really don't care about ETA or its issues.
Reguardless of which bunch of terrorists, freedom fighters, moronic dips***s did this, there will be people disappearing. Now would not be a very good time to be known as a thorn in the side of government. Look for an all inclusive just in case aproach,
westex
Member
When stuff like this happens why doesn't anyone immediately think - Southern Baptist or Lutheran or Boy Scouts? I've always been a little suspious that there's more to Billy Graham than newspaper columns and filling Yankee Stadium. And those BSA people with their oaths and ethics seem a liitle radical to me. Aren't these right wing groups ever going to get headlines?
agricola
Member
mike,
sorry, but I think you're operating in some ignorance here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3501364.stm
sorry, but I think you're operating in some ignorance here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3501364.stm
Latest Khornet editorial
YOU WILL NOT ESCAPE
MADRID, Spain (AP)-Ten bombs tore through trains and stations along a commuter line at the height of Madrid's morning rush hour Thursday, killing 173 people and wounding at least 600....
I don't know who you are. I don't know your name, or your face, and I don't care, because I know what you are.
I don't care what is the name or nature of your cause. Whatever it is, you have just demonstrated that it is evil. For this reason it will ultimately fail, and you and your cause will be forgotten.
Now the blood of your victims cries out for justice. But I realize they probably won't find you. You probably think you have gotten away with it, but you are wrong.
Because even as the dead are buried and the wounded treated, as the families of your victims grieve and your government frantically searches for you, Someone is watching.
And though we don't know who you are, He knows. And one day -- quite soon, I hope -- you will stand before Him. He will ask you why you slaughtered His children, but no answer you can give will be good enough. For you will be standing before the Judge Who Cannot Be Deceived or Intimidated, and He already knows why you did it. He knows your reason wasn't good enough, and wasn't really even your reason: for though you say you did it for the Basques, or the Palestinians, or Animal Rights, you really did it because your heart has been consumed by evil.
And because your spirit is consumed with evil, He will send it to its natural home. There you will suffer punishment far worse, and much longer lasting, than any of us here on earth could ever mete out to you. One day the wounds you caused will heal, and the suffering of your victims will end. But yours will not, not ever.
Michael R. Bowen M.D.
YOU WILL NOT ESCAPE
MADRID, Spain (AP)-Ten bombs tore through trains and stations along a commuter line at the height of Madrid's morning rush hour Thursday, killing 173 people and wounding at least 600....
I don't know who you are. I don't know your name, or your face, and I don't care, because I know what you are.
I don't care what is the name or nature of your cause. Whatever it is, you have just demonstrated that it is evil. For this reason it will ultimately fail, and you and your cause will be forgotten.
Now the blood of your victims cries out for justice. But I realize they probably won't find you. You probably think you have gotten away with it, but you are wrong.
Because even as the dead are buried and the wounded treated, as the families of your victims grieve and your government frantically searches for you, Someone is watching.
And though we don't know who you are, He knows. And one day -- quite soon, I hope -- you will stand before Him. He will ask you why you slaughtered His children, but no answer you can give will be good enough. For you will be standing before the Judge Who Cannot Be Deceived or Intimidated, and He already knows why you did it. He knows your reason wasn't good enough, and wasn't really even your reason: for though you say you did it for the Basques, or the Palestinians, or Animal Rights, you really did it because your heart has been consumed by evil.
And because your spirit is consumed with evil, He will send it to its natural home. There you will suffer punishment far worse, and much longer lasting, than any of us here on earth could ever mete out to you. One day the wounds you caused will heal, and the suffering of your victims will end. But yours will not, not ever.
Michael R. Bowen M.D.
If anyone would like to send an email of condolence to their Chancery, their web page is:
http://www.spainemb.org/ingles/indexing.htm
http://www.spainemb.org/ingles/indexing.htm
Stand_Watie
Member
That's very nice wordsmithing Khornet, are you and Dr. Bowen the same person?
I wrote that yesterday
when I was hopping mad. Dr. Bowen is my evil twin who writes for
www.americasvoices.org and www.intellectualconservative.com
He doesn't get out much.
when I was hopping mad. Dr. Bowen is my evil twin who writes for
www.americasvoices.org and www.intellectualconservative.com
He doesn't get out much.
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